Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

[El Presidente]

Massive generalisation, like saying all teachers are good or bad at their job etc....

Things like PFI deals are only as good as the person from the public body arranging them / agreeing to them. There is a danger that someone agrees a deal which isn't good value for money to the public (like the new airport built in Scotland by PFI (when Labour were in power) where it cost several times more than it should and they gave away the rights to collect an income from the commercial space to the financiers too) it comes down to how much the individual cares about getting the very best deal that can and treating public money as something they need to be very frugal when spending, or if they think oh well it's not my cash and it makes no difference to me how much we end up paying (a lot of budgets exist and if not used, are lost so why get maximum value for money throughout the year only to have an excess that you have to spend on stuff you don't really want because you won't get the same budget the following year)

Like in all walks of life, and both private and public areas, there will be good and bad examples and it can / will vary dramatically as it relies on people

Fair enough, do you think, overall, the banking sector has made a positive or negative contribution to the global economy over the last decade?

On a similar note, do you think doctors have made a positive or negative contribution to the global economy over the last decade?

As far as PFI is concerned, I think it's a rip off, and it's been a 'product' dreamt up by the banks and enthusiastically endorsed by politicians as it provides off balance sheet financing of public sector debt, which will be paid for by future generations. Both Labour and the coalition have been complicit in this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can kinda see why he does though, illness and disease, etc don't stop for Sundays so should treatment be reduced or cost more to administer due to an old fashioned idea of Sunday being a religious day / day of rest. if the doctors are being compensated (indirectly in terms of getting the extra for a Sunday shift but it being paid in a way it's spread out over all the hours that Doctor works in a week)

Shops open on Sundays and it wouldn't surprise me if we eventually head towards opening hours mirroring the rest of the week rather than being stopped by Sunday trading laws (the country is becoming less religious) And i would imagine shops will end up paying at just the standard hourly rate that applies the rest of the week (I think Woolworths did this just before they went bust for new employees but i could be wrong)

Its a sign of society changing, whether it's something that's right for the NHS to adopt (at least now and not in the distant future if it becomes the norm in all walks of life) i don't know

I agree with that. My tiny point was that Hunt has not handled it well. For me, it is important the docs don't go back to working silly hours (48 non stop was common 15 years ago). Negociating with public employees is not a tory strongpoint, with 'crushing the opposition and selling them off' being the usual agenda. I half suspect the tories are happy to see the NHS get into disrepute, and if I were a tory I'd be in favour of that (if you want something then pay for it - socialism is just plain wrong - a defensible position, until you start to consider those who can't pay). I suspect Hunt has bitten off more than he can chew, and would not be surprised to see a Fenway style bit of capitulation soon . . . . Cheers!

 

[severnside gull]

I work at Tommy's. The junior doctors I know (which is, by definition, anyone not a consultant with a licence to print their own money doing private practice) are being wooed by the Aussies. Botany Bay won't know what's hit it, the way things are going . . . .

Last night's Question Time was hilarious featuring an open invitation to any doctors wanting to be treated with respect to cross the Severn Bridge. The Westminster government's Welsh Minister had no answer beyond resorting to sarcasm.

 

[drew]

I can kinda see why he does though, illness and disease, etc don't stop for Sundays so should treatment be reduced or cost more to administer due to an old fashioned idea of Sunday being a religious day / day of rest. if the doctors are being compensated (indirectly in terms of getting the extra for a Sunday shift but it being paid in a way it's spread out over all the hours that Doctor works in a week)

If you fall ill at the weekend, you will still get the treatment you need at that time.

How do Germans fair in other comparable aspects, such as:
- do they have more spare capital to spend as they wish
- is their overall taxation higher or lower than here?
- is the average personal debt burden higher or lower
- and how does the overall cost of living compare to here (both directly and when measured against average earnings too?) @Herr Tubthumper
(I mean if you pay less tax, have less to repay in personal debt and therefore have more spare cash to spend as you wish, it makes it easier to be able to pay more for healthcare and do we have the same flexibility here or are things much tighter for a lot of our population and an increase in tax could / would have a massive effect on peoples lives? )

Germany's tax revenue is 40.6% of GDP and ours is 39%. Seems the answer is simple then. raise income tax and spend the extra on the NHS!!!! Not sure on my maths but that could be an extra £47 billion on the NHS. That's a hefty increase on the existing budget of £116b

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If you fall ill at the weekend, you will still get the treatment you need at that time.



Germany's tax revenue is 40.6% of GDP and ours is 39%. Seems the answer is simple then. raise income tax and spend the extra on the NHS!!!! Not sure on my maths but that could be an extra £47 billion on the NHS. That's a hefty increase on the existing budget of £116b

Good luck getting elected arguing for large scale income tax increases .... simples!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How do Germans fair in other comparable aspects, such as:
- do they have more spare capital to spend as they wish
- is their overall taxation higher or lower than here?
- is the average personal debt burden higher or lower
- and how does the overall cost of living compare to here (both directly and when measured against average earnings too?) [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION]
(I mean if you pay less tax, have less to repay in personal debt and therefore have more spare cash to spend as you wish, it makes it easier to be able to pay more for healthcare and do we have the same flexibility here or are things much tighter for a lot of our population and an increase in tax could / would have a massive effect on peoples lives? )

1) Yes, primarily because accommodation is a much smaller percentage of income.
2) Taxation (UK income tax and NI versus Deutsch income tax and health) is higher.
3) Don't know but at a guess I'd say personal debt is less as the culture is to only spend what you have. In fact there have been some issues with low consumer spending here.

 

[Seagull27]

I can kinda see why he does though, illness and disease, etc don't stop for Sundays so should treatment be reduced or cost more to administer due to an old fashioned idea of Sunday being a religious day / day of rest. if the doctors are being compensated (indirectly in terms of getting the extra for a Sunday shift but it being paid in a way it's spread out over all the hours that Doctor works in a week)

Shops open on Sundays and it wouldn't surprise me if we eventually head towards opening hours mirroring the rest of the week rather than being stopped by Sunday trading laws (the country is becoming less religious) And i would imagine shops will end up paying at just the standard hourly rate that applies the rest of the week (I think Woolworths did this just before they went bust for new employees but i could be wrong)

Its a sign of society changing, whether it's something that's right for the NHS to adopt (at least now and not in the distant future if it becomes the norm in all walks of life) i don't know

And at that time, do you think those shops will tell its staff 'sorry guys, we're open for longer so you're just going to have to work more', or do you think they'd hire more staff to cover the longer hours?

 

[beorhthelm]

If you fall ill at the weekend, you will still get the treatment you need at that time.



Germany's tax revenue is 40.6% of GDP and ours is 39%. Seems the answer is simple then. raise income tax and spend the extra on the NHS!!!! Not sure on my maths but that could be an extra £47 billion on the NHS. That's a hefty increase on the existing budget of £116b

dont know where you start the maths from, but GDP is £1808bn so 1% more spendwould be 18bn. not small change, a 10% uplift. however, if you want to start increasing tax for spending, theres a half dozen other departments that wnat the same deal. and at the end of the day, tax rises dont sell political parties, we're less than a year on from the country chosing spending cuts over slightly smaller spending cuts.

 

[drew]

dont know where you start the maths from, but GDP is £1808bn so 1% more spendwould be 18bn. not small change, a 10% uplift. however, if you want to start increasing tax for spending, theres a half dozen other departments that wnat the same deal. and at the end of the day, tax rises dont sell political parties, we're less than a year on from the country chosing spending cuts over slightly smaller spending cuts.

Probably because I worked it out in dollars but didn't convert!!!! Oops

 

[drew]

Good luck getting elected arguing for large scale income tax increases .... simples!

Disregarding the fact I mistakenly quoted dollars instead of sterling, I was being facetious in response to Guy Fawkes.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Disregarding the fact I mistakenly quoted dollars instead of sterling, I was being facetious in response to Guy Fawkes.

Fair enough I had to check as many people contributing to this thread seem to think money grows on trees.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

What I really don't understand is that nurses work 24/7. There is no difference in staffing or shift patterns at any time during the week. Their pay does change depending on the hours they work but apart from that it is a fully staffed job all the time.

Doctors don't. It's a 5 day week with weekends on call. I just don't understand this.

You may feel that is the case for your gp but categorically does not apply to junior doctors. It is a 24/7 service for juniors that is slightly better covered during normal working hours due to outpatients and elective operations.

A&E docs will usually work 1 in 2 Weekends and the equivalent of 1 week in 4 as night shifts.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Check my facts? So that it matches your hearsay? I married a Medical Student, supported her all through her Junior Doctor pathway then as a Consultant. During all that we had a Son who spent his Gap year as a Ward Assistant on an Elderly Medical Ward. All this has cost me my Job, my flat and leaving Brighton.
I don't have a Dog in this fight. I could write thousands of words disputing or agreeing with different aspects of the NHS. I have personnel amusing and dangerous episodes of being operated on by Juniors at weekends but I'm to old and life's too short to carry on a discussion with the written word. I really should have stuck to my resolution not to join in.

Fair enough.

But the second thing I quoted was not hearsay. It was personal experience within my own family.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Ahh OK, so how do you become a consultant, what exactly is a consultant ?

Salary, Hours etc, ?

Thanks

A Consultant, as far as I am aware, is the most senior level of doctor in a hospital for a particular discipline (I.e. Consultant cardiologist, although you can have more than one for each discipline I think, the head of a team.

Some doctors will never make consultant and so would presumably retire as junior doctors.

Don't know about hours and salary, but they would also be the ones who could get lucrative private work.

 

[beorhthelm]

You may feel that is the case for your gp but categorically does not apply to junior doctors.

so there's no junior GPs and no junior doctors in specialism that are office hours?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Fair enough I had to check as many people contributing to this thread seem to think money grows on trees.

It grows in Google's bank account though.

 

[El Presidente]

Fair enough I had to check as many people contributing to this thread seem to think money grows on trees.

No it doesn't.

You're confusing it with spaghetti.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It grows in Google's bank account though.

True although not as much as it did under the last Labour government.

 

[nicko31]

So employees in the public sector have had a contract imposed on them.

Its a big deal, in private sector you don't have a choice. They get a 13% payrise and keeping a final salary pension, are we serious are getting rid of deficit or what?

 

[drew]

So employees in the public sector have had a contract imposed on them.

Its a big deal, in private sector you don't have a choice. They get a 13% payrise and keeping a final salary pension, are we serious are getting rid of deficit or what?

In the private sector and employer can't just impose a contract on you. You might think they can but there are things you can do. As for the Public sector, does it not occur to you that they are already working under a contract. Don't forget, a contract is an agreement between two parties with obligations on both sides.