Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

[pastafarian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Not sure it's been "used as a scare tactic" as I've not seen or heard it but I know that if my employer treated me with the arrogant disdain that Hunt has I would be away at the first opportunity.

The government is offering extra pay after 5pm

But they have offered to top up the pay by 30% for those who work regular Saturdays - defined as at least one in four

The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate

Agreement has not been reached on on-call allowances, how limits on working hours are to be policed and days off between night shifts

The government has offered a basic pay rise of 13.5%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

Not sure I would be fleeing anywhere with a 13.5% basic pay rise.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

they are. the remaining area of contention is overtime on Saturdays and early weekday evenings. Government want those periods seen as regular hours, BMA want them seen as "unsocial" hours and paid more for working them. right or wrong, that boils down to being about money.

Seems that way

Junior doctors claim that they already work on weekends and provide a 7 day NHS.

Currently if the weekend days are more expensive to bring these junior doctors in to work, and hospital budgets are quite tight, then there much be a case that hospitals would more likely decide to try to fit in more operations, etc, between Monday and Friday when staffing costs are cheaper rather than being able to spread it out over the full 7 day week - would it mean less stretched resources, better care for those who need treatment (Doctors able to spend more time with a patient?) and savings used to provide more hours cover over a whole week?


As for Saturdays being described as unsociable hours, do (for example) shop workers get extra for working on a Saturday? (a shops busiest day of the week?) - no!

 

[portlock seagull]

Is being a GP still somewhat of a closed shop? Is that part of the problem or no longer true?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The government is offering extra pay after 5pm

But they have offered to top up the pay by 30% for those who work regular Saturdays - defined as at least one in four

The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate

Agreement has not been reached on on-call allowances, how limits on working hours are to be policed and days off between night shifts

The government has offered a basic pay rise of 13.5%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

Not sure I would be fleeing anywhere with a 13.5% basic pay rise.

It probably comes down to the hours that some of them work

I worked evenings / nights at one stage in retail and as most of my basic contracted hours counted as and were paid at a higher rate of pay, making a massive difference to my take home pay. - Had i returned to mainly daytime work, then my pay would have dropped significantly.

There will be Junior Doctors who will be better off (ones that usually worked mainly social hours) some will end up about even (pay rise = lost unsocial hours pay averaged over shifts covered) and some who will lose out (pay increase doesn't cover the losses if most of their working hours were previously paid at the higher unsocial hours rates)

There is (i guess) the fear that the new contract would be seen as something that could lead them to being put into a position where they are asked to mainly work shifts that were covering unsociable hours only (which they weren't doing before) and feel like they are not being rewarded fairly because of the old rates of pay that existed before

 

[atfc village]

What a fine local MP i have.

 

[drew]

Seems that way

Junior doctors claim that they already work on weekends and provide a 7 day NHS.

Currently if the weekend days are more expensive to bring these junior doctors in to work, and hospital budgets are quite tight, then there much be a case that hospitals would more likely decide to try to fit in more operations, etc, between Monday and Friday when staffing costs are cheaper rather than being able to spread it out over the full 7 day week - would it mean less stretched resources, better care for those who need treatment (Doctors able to spend more time with a patient?) and savings used to provide more hours cover over a whole week?


As for Saturdays being described as unsociable hours, do (for example) shop workers get extra for working on a Saturday? (a shops busiest day of the week?) - no!

Surely if you want to do more operations then you need to employ more staff to do it or the existing staff have to work longer hours then they already do?

 

[severnside gull]

The government is offering extra pay after 5pm

But they have offered to top up the pay by 30% for those who work regular Saturdays - defined as at least one in four

The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate

Agreement has not been reached on on-call allowances, how limits on working hours are to be policed and days off between night shifts

The government has offered a basic pay rise of 13.5%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

Not sure I would be fleeing anywhere with a 13.5% basic pay rise.

Except that a central part of the doctors' argument is that the figures aren't what they appear and that Hunt's press offerings are somewhat disingenuous.
To be honest I wouldn't trust Hunt or the BMA in this respect but everything I do see of Hunt and the way he has conducted himself is fairly unpalatable

 

[1066gull]

Jeremy Hunt, like all his colleagues are nasty and manipulative but the real problem here is not Jeremy himself. He is just the public face to all of this, he's not making the decisions, it is big business right now lubing up and ****ing the NHS. It's called the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and its changing how business is done between the US and Europe.

Its happening in complete secrecy! Just imagine some of the worst people in their entire world, unelected individuals deciding what needs to be done about the NHS.

 

[beorhthelm]

Isn't it the case that they actually want the existing unsocial hours recognized. Currently I think standard hours are 7am to 7pm Monday to Friday but Hunt wants to change that to 7am to 10pm Mon to Sat. Do you think working 9pm on a Saturday is not unsocial?

i wasnt arguing if it is or isnt "unsocial", point is its about the money. they want those hours recognised... how about a nice statement from the minister "we recognise that ...."? no, the BMA want money for this.

Actually they are not - they are willing to scrap some of the 11% increase in basic to allow those that work Saturdays to be paid more.

well yes they do seem to have a compromise on the table. personally i think both sides are being pathetic getting bogged down drawing a red line on the weekend like this. however, i also see that if you have +50% pay for Saturday staffing, then a hospital or other facility is going to reduce the staffing to what it is during the week. and that is what this is all about. but then they've conceded on Sundays so the 7 day NHS is holed anyway on that front.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It probably comes down to the hours that some of them work

I worked evenings / nights at one stage in retail and as most of my basic contracted hours counted as and were paid at a higher rate of pay, making a massive difference to my take home pay. - Had i returned to mainly daytime work, then my pay would have dropped significantly.

There will be Junior Doctors who will be better off (ones that usually worked mainly social hours) some will end up about even (pay rise = lost unsocial hours pay averaged over shifts covered) and some who will lose out (pay increase doesn't cover the losses if most of their working hours were previously paid at the higher unsocial hours rates)

There is (i guess) the fear that the new contract would be seen as something that could lead them to being put into a position where they are asked to mainly work shifts that were covering unsociable hours only (which they weren't doing before) and feel like they are not being rewarded fairly because of the old rates of pay that existed before

It is certainly complicated and I can't say I am across all the minutia of the negotiations but it appears to come down to money. The new imposed contract seems to offer significant concessions and I doubt we will see the suggested flight of junior doctors to other countries. It hasn't been handled well by the government but I think the BMA should take some of the blame.

Except that a central part of the doctors' argument is that the figures aren't what they appear and that Hunt's press offerings are somewhat disingenuous.

True, damn lies and statistics make it very hard to work out who's telling the truth.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Surely if you want to do more operations then you need to employ more staff to do it or the existing staff have to work longer hours then they already do?

Not necessarily, those operations were going to be done anyway and what changes if when they are carried out. (they would still need the same staffing level to carry it out) but it could mean patients get treated quicker, then they recover quicker and potentially need less time and resources spent on them care costs (before and after the operation is carried out) and that saving can be used to fund extra staff to carry it out / pre & post care, etc)

Plus potential the savings made by using existing facilities more (less need to buy in private healthcare to carry out operations or more buildings to increase how many operations can be done per week) add to the money saved which can be used to provide enough staff for patient care without making only the existing Junior doctors work and therefore extended / dangerous numbers of hours)

 

[skipper734]

There is not a true seven day a week NHS. All this Jnr. Doctor talk is hot air, they are running interference for and are being encouraged by Consultants, as they will be the real stumbling block to a seven day a week NHS. This is the real battle, changing a Contract that has been worked under since 1947.

 

[Creaky]

You can argue all day long whether the proposed deal is reasonable, whether doctors will be worse or better off and so on - the bottom line though is that those who will be affected don't like it.

It strikes me as madness for an employer who can't currently attract enough people as it is to impose a contract on its existing employees against their wishes.

 

[drew]

Not necessarily, those operations were going to be done anyway and what changes if when they are carried out. (they would still need the same staffing level to carry it out) but it could mean patients get treated quicker, then they recover quicker and potentially need less time and resources spent on them care costs (before and after the operation is carried out) and that saving can be used to fund extra staff to carry it out / pre & post care, etc)

Plus potential the savings made by using existing facilities more (less need to buy in private healthcare to carry out operations or more buildings to increase how many operations can be done per week) add to the money saved which can be used to provide enough staff for patient care without making only the existing Junior doctors work and therefore extended / dangerous numbers of hours)

Either I'm missing something or that makes no sense. According to you, they still have to carry out more operations with the existing staff before they see any savings which can then be invested in more staff/facilities, if there are savings to be made!

 

[gregbrighton]

Nasty, evil Tory government.

 

[beorhthelm]

Either I'm missing something or that makes no sense. According to you, they still have to carry out more operations with the existing staff before they see any savings which can then be invested in more staff/facilities, if there are savings to be made!

thats how accounts work, saving on fixed costs or unit costs per operation to free up budget to allow more spending on variable costs. 10 staff at x pay verses 9 staff at (x*110%). or somthing, i see whats meant.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Regardless of your political viewpoint it is crass and clueless behaviour by Jezza.

Alienating an intelligent, highly trained, educated and mobile workforce, who cannot be easily replaced, is a dumb thing to do, even if your dad is an admiral and you used to be head boy at Charterhouse.

I was going to say I think he might have picked the wrong fight. You have put it a whole lot better.

My younger daughter is a junior doctor. She is in no way a political animal, but she is furious.

 

[maltaseagull]

Nasty, evil Tory government.

Absolutely. They are to blame for all the wrongs in the world. None of them want to do anything to improve the country and are all in it purely for ego and money.

 

[wellquickwoody]

This doctor is yet another force feeding the lie to the public that this dispute is not about money but saving the NHS. He states his case about working long hours and working in a highly pressurised environment which are all fair points, and then bangs on about going onto the picket line to save the NHS. Fighting for your working conditions is fine, but telling me that you are doing it on my behalf is disengenuous to say the least.

He also mentions that he is paid £18 per hour for a 48 hour week, but often works a 60 hour week, long hours without doubt but many others work the same for less. That hourly rate actually works out at £864 per week, or £45k per year. Comfortable money for most, brilliant money for the average 27 year old. This doctor also has the opportunity to earn far, far more over the coming years as his experience and pay grade rises, up to what £70k, £85k or £100k+?

By all means fight for your rights, but stop lieing to the public please that it is on their behalf.