Junior Doctors Strike

[CHAPPERS]

Could the doctors not just move to the private sector if NHS pay wasn't competitive? Or are there not many openings in the private sector?

And that would be good for the NHS how?

Doctors take the hippocratic oath and it's extremely rare for them to strike yet people still think they are taking the piss somehow. It beggars belief really.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Could the doctors not just move to the private sector if NHS pay wasn't competitive? Or are there not many openings in the private sector?

The NHS has a monopoly on training (via Health Education England etc.). The only way to become a GP/Specialist is to work in the NHS scheme. You can be employed directly by the NHS trusts and not progress. Private medicine is very small in this country, particularly below Consultant level and offers no opportunities for progress.

Also, cover in private hospitals in comical, way below NHS standards and usually with far less competent doctors. NEVER be in a private hospital if you are actually sick.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

This is a reasonable explanation -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

 

[Gazwag]

Could the doctors not just move to the private sector if NHS pay wasn't competitive? Or are there not many openings in the private sector?

I would say currently there is not enough space from them in the private sector

 

[Albumen]

JEREMY’S SPIN AND THE TRUTH BEHIND IT:
SPIN: “Saturday is a normal working day”
TRUTH: no it is not – it is the weekend and has been for some time.

SPIN: “Working at 9am is the same as working at 9pm”
TRUTH: no it is not – it is much darker, colder and antisocial.

SPIN: “Patients are being put in danger by strikes”
TRUTH: No they are not. Our wonderful, experienced, supportive consultants are ensuring this is not the case – today all patients will see a consultant.

SPIN: “75% of current doctors will see a salary increase”
TRUTH: No they wont, this is only if we work “within legal limits” and I am yet to find a doctor who works within legal limits. Furthermore 100% of future doctors will see a PAY CUT as they will not benefit from payment protection.

SPIN: “doctors will receive an 11% increase in basic pay”
TRUTH: this would be nice if we weren’t also getting a 30% CUT IN TOTAL PAY.

SPIN: “7 studies in the last fives years talk about the weekend effect…”
TRUTH: Not one study shows the ‘weekend effect’ is due to a lack of doctors, we already work 7 days a week under the current contract. There must be an ulterior motive what is it Jeremy? Save money? Privatise NHS?

SPIN: “We made a manifesto promise for a 7 day NHS…”
TRUTH: A 7 day NHS already exists Jeremy. Your manifesto is a tactical list of flimsy promises made up to win votes, it does not care for patients, it does not care for NHS front line staff, it is not evidenced based and it will not improve patient care. If only you spent as much time and effort trying to improve the NHS as you do trying to endorse your flimsy manifesto.

SPIN: “Doctors are being mislead by the BMA”
TRUTH: No we are not, we are all intelligent, experienced and reasonable people who spend our lives interpreting complicated information, our patient’s lives depend on it. We have looked at the DOH proposals and 98% of us agreed that we had no other option but to reluctantly strike.

 

[Gazwag]

Also, cover in private hospitals in comical, way below NHS standards and usually with far less competent doctors. NEVER be in a private hospital if you are actually sick.

Complete bollocks

 

[spring hall convert]

If you trust Jeremy Hunt more than 98% of the membership of the BMA, then more fool you.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

I didn't realise that unless you are a Consultant, you remain a junior doctor, sometimes for decades. Bit of a misleading title.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Complete bollocks

Not complete bollocks, my other half has worked in the private sector for the last 12 years and I talk to colleagues who work there. Great for your minor ops but if things go wrong then they call an ambulance to take you to an NHS hospital.

Usually limited medical cover from an RMO (often a junior surgical doctor). Consultant cover often unavailable in the hospital (and often not even on the phone).

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

My daughter is a junior doctor, so yes, but NOT unquestioningly.

If I was in private industry and Jeremy Hunt was in charge of my staff relations, I would sack him.

 

[Ernest]

You should have made it an open poll so we know exactly what idiots don't support them

 

[Gazwag]

Not complete bollocks, my other half has worked in the private sector for the last 12 years and I talk to colleagues who work there. Great for your minor ops but if things go wrong then they call an ambulance to take you to an NHS hospital.

Usually limited medical cover from an RMO (often a junior surgical doctor). Consultant cover often unavailable in the hospital (and often not even on the phone).

As does mine (well in excess of 12 years), must be a better set up then, always 24 hours on call teams including consultants

 

[Frutos]

If you trust Jeremy Hunt more than 98% of the membership of the BMA, then more fool you.

This.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

As does mine (well in excess of 12 years), must be a better set up then, always 24 hours on call teams including consultants

On call from home? No good if you have an emergency.

As I said, straightforward stuff great - plush room, nicer food etc. If you are very sick, or at risk of serious surgical complications then NHS is your best bet.

Certainly people often, wrongly, believe they get a better doctor by going private.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

the BMA was calling for a change to the contract for years. the current proposal appears to meet their concerns and improve upon them (shorter hours maximum, shorter shift patterns). apparently they are arguing over pay around unsocial hours, seems the only problem.

The new contracts also remove working hours protection where hospitals get fined for imposing excessive working hours on doctors costing them double the doctors salary in penalties. This is the only measure keeping working hours within the realms of reasonable for doctors and safe for patients.

 

[beorhthelm]

JEREMY’S SPIN AND THE TRUTH BEHIND IT:
...

aren't the points after the first 3 three just spin themselves? we are not closer to the truth. the brass tacks of the "weekend effect" haven't just emerged from no where, and its a pretty daft proposition to work off if there is no evidence, even if its from groups with an agenda.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You should have made it an open poll so we know exactly what idiots don't support them

You know who they are.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

The new contracts also remove working hours protection where hospitals get fined for imposing excessive working hours on doctors costing them double the doctors salary in penalties. This is the only measure keeping working hours within the realms of reasonable for doctors and safe for patients.

Additionally, the "guardian of safe working" would be appointed by the NHS Trust itself! Fines for overworking doctors would be ring fenced for doctors training, raising the prospect that trusts could deliberately overwork and use the "fines" to pay the salaries of those doctors.

Payment for "on-call" would be removed. This means that a small supplement would be paid for "potentially being called in to work". These hours are not included in pay calculations - trusts would simply have doctors "on-call" but call them in to work all the time and claim conditions and pay are better.

 

[El Presidente]

It's difficult to know who to believe.

On the one hand you have the junior doctors, all of whom have spent a minimum of five years at medical school, work up to 91 hours a week, are well educated and have a day to day knowledge and experience of the NHS. These are people who could have used their intellect to earn far more money working in the City of London, but for whatever reason, chose to dedicate themselves to healing the sick.

On the other hand there is Jeremy Hunt, a man who three months ago didn't even know the maximum hours being proposed in the new contract, had to pay back £9,500 of expenses because he didn't understand the form correctly (according to one Jeremy Hunt), and a few years ago called for the NHS to be dismantled as it was 'no longer relevant'. He has said that there are 11,000 deaths a year caused by the lack of a seven day NHS, whilst ignoring the findings of the report from which he quoted, which said "It is not possible to ascertain the extent to which these deaths may be preventable."

It's a tough call, why isn't there a 'maybe' option in the poll?

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's difficult to know who to believe.

On the one hand you have the junior doctors, all of whom have spent a minimum of five years at medical school, work up to 91 hours a week, are well educated and have a day to day knowledge and experience of the NHS. These are people who could have used their intellect to earn far more money working in the City of London, but for whatever reason, chose to dedicate themselves to healing the sick.

On the other hand there is Jeremy Hunt, a man who three months ago didn't even know the maximum hours being proposed in the new contract, had to pay back £9,500 of expenses because he didn't understand the form correctly (according to one Jeremy Hunt), and a few years ago called for the NHS to be dismantled as it was 'no longer relevant'. He has said that there are 11,000 deaths a year caused by the lack of a seven day NHS, whilst ignoring the findings of the report from which he quoted, which said "It is not possible to ascertain the extent to which these deaths may be preventable."

It's a tough call, why isn't there a 'maybe' option in the poll?

very good.