Having read the details of the interview I have to say I agree with him on this. Breastfeeding in public is absolutely fine but as he said, try and at least make it discreet because it can make people feel uncomfortable. Of course a lot of the mothering groups are in UPROAR because mothers with babies should take priority over EVERYTHING else, if you don't have a baby you shouldn't be allowed an opinion on the matter.
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Could UKIP win the General Election ?
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
Having read the details of the interview I have to say I agree with him on this. Breastfeeding in public is absolutely fine but as he said, try and at least make it discreet because it can make people feel uncomfortable. Of course a lot of the mothering groups are in UPROAR because mothers with babies should take priority over EVERYTHING else, if you don't have a baby you shouldn't be allowed an opinion on the matter.
I said, quite clearly, that I didn't expect to see this in lifetime, for precisely this reason.
But young people are far less concerned about nationality. I've seen a few surveys on this and the young are far, far less hidebound by nationality. I was speaking to someone at a conference recently who lived in Netherlands when was young (with Belgian and Dutch parents) but went to school in Germany, university in the UK and now lived in the US. I asked him what nationality he considered himself and he was quite bemused by the idea. In 60 or 70 years time that view will be much more common.
I wasn't trying to imply that everyone rich was a gangster: I was pointing out that there would be little stopping a gangster fleeing justice to buy a British passport and come over here.
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
Interesting result from the poll on the Telepgraph site but I bet the results change later on. Also quite reasonable what he said
"I’m not particularly bothered about it, but I know a lot of people do feel very uncomfortable, and look – this is just a matter of common sense, isn’t it? I think that given that some people feel very embarrassed by it, it isn’t too difficult to breastfeed a baby in a way that’s not openly ostentatious," Mr Farage said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11274857/Nigel-Farage-Breastfeeding-mothers-should-sit-in-the-corner.htm
Mr Farage later issued a clarification of his comments, saying it was "immensely frustrating" the way they had been interpreted.
"The media fabrication over breastfeeding has been extraordinary," he said.
"Let me get this clear, as I said on the radio and as I repeat now, I personally have no problem with mothers breastfeeding wherever they want."
It's quite a close vote, although the question they are asking is slightly loaded: "Should mothers who breastfeed in public 'sit in the corner'?" A more appropriate question would be something like "Should women be discreet when breastfeeding in public?"
Seagull on the wing
New member
Some have said...What are UKIPs policies....this might help....What a UKIP Government will do
Protecting jobs and increasing prosperity
- We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness.
– We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage.
– UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.
– We would reoccupy the UK’s vacant seat at the World Trade Organisation, ensuring that we continue to enjoy ‘most favoured nation’ status in trade with the EU, as is required under WTO rules.
Repairing the UK Economy
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– UKIP will set up a Treasury Commission to design a turnover tax to ensure big businesses pay a minimum floor rate of tax as a proportion of their UK turnover.
Reducing debts we leave to our grandchildren
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa, prioritising disaster relief and schemes which provide water and inoculation against preventable diseases.
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project which is uneconomical and unjustified.
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending and give devolved parliaments and assemblies further tax powers to compensate.
Prioritising Education and Skills
– UKIP will introduce an option for students to take an Apprenticeship Qualification instead of four non-core GCSEs which can be continued at A-Level. Students can take up apprenticeships in jobs with certified professionals qualified to grade the progress of the student.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.
– UKIP will scrap the target of 50% of school leavers going to university.
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students.
– UKIP supports the principle of Free Schools that are open to the whole community and uphold British values.
– Existing schools will be allowed to apply to become grammar schools and select according to ability and aptitude. Selection ages will be flexible and determined by the school in consultation with the local authority.
– Schools will be investigated by OFSTED on the presentation of a petition to the Department for Education signed by 25% of parents or governors.
Honouring the Military Covenant
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– UKIP will guarantee those who have served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of 12 years a job in the police force, prison service or border force
– UKIP will change the points system for social housing to give priority to ex-service men and women and those returning from active service.
– A Veterans Department will bring together all veterans services to ensure servicemen and women get the after-service care they deserve.
– Veterans are to receive a Veterans’ Service Card to ensure they are fast tracked for mental health care and services, if needed.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP supports a National Service Medal for all those who have served in the armed forces.
The National Health Service
– UKIP will ensure the NHS is free at the point of delivery and time of need for all UK residents.
– We will stop further use of PFI in the NHS and encourage local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts early where this is affordable.
– We will ensure that GPs’ surgeries are open at least one evening per week, where there is demand for it.
– UKIP opposes plans to charge patients for visiting their GP.
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK, and migrants until they have paid NI for five years, have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa. UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.
– We will replace Monitor and the Care Quality Commission with elected county health boards to be more responsive scrutineers of local health services. These will be able to inspect health services and take evidence from whistle-blowers.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– We will ensure foreign health service professionals coming to work in the NHS are properly qualified and can speak English to a standard acceptable to the profession.
– UKIP will amend working time rules to give trainee doctors, surgeons and medics the proper environment to train and practise.
– There will be a duty on all health service staff to report low standards of care.
Controlling and managing our borders
– UKIP recognises the benefits of limited, controlled immigration.
– UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.
– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years and will only be eligible for permanent residence after ten years.
– UKIP will reinstate the primary purpose rule for bringing foreign spouses and children to the UK.
– UKIP will not offer an amnesty for illegal immigrants or those gaining British passports through fraud.
– UKIP will return to the principles of the UN Convention of Refugees which serves to protect the most vulnerable.
Foreign Aid
– UKIP will target foreign aid at healthcare initiatives, inoculations against preventable diseases and clean water programmes with a much-reduced aid budget administered by the Foreign Office.
– British organisations will be offered the contracts to deliver the remaining aid following removal of the EU Procurement Directive.
Energy
– UKIP will repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18bn a year.
– UKIP supports a diverse energy market including coal, nuclear, shale gas, geo-thermal, tidal, solar, conventional gas and oil.
– We will scrap the Large Combustion Plant Directive and encourage the re-development of British power stations, as well as industrial units providing on-site power generation.
– UKIP supports the development of shale gas with proper safeguards for the local environment. Community Improvement Levy money from the development of shale gas fields will be earmarked for lower council taxes or community projects within the local authority being developed.
– There will be no new subsidies for wind farms and solar arrays.
– UKIP will abolish green taxes and charges in order to reduce fuel bills.
Agriculture and Fishing
– By leaving the EU, the UK will leave the Common Agricultural Policy. Outside the EU UKIP will institute a British Single Farm Payment for farms.
– UKIP will let the British parliament vote on GM foods.
– UKIP will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and reinstate British territorial waters.
– Foreign trawlers would have to apply for and purchase fishing permits to fish British waters when fish stocks have returned to sustainable levels.
– Food must be labelled to include the country of origin, method of production, method of slaughter, hormones and any genetic additives.
– UKIP will abolish the export of live animals for slaughter
Welfare and Childcare
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax because it operates unfairly, penalising those who are unable to find alternative accommodation and taking insufficient account of the needs of families and the disabled.
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only.
– UKIP will ensure there is an initial presumption of 50/50 shared parenting in child custody matters and grandparents will be given visitation rights.
– UKIP supports a simplified, streamlined welfare system and a benefit cap.
Transport
– We will scrap HS2.
– UKIP opposes tolls on public roads and will let existing contracts for running toll roads expire.
– UKIP will maintain pensioner bus passes.
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc, before entry to the UK, in order to contribute to the upkeep of UK roads and any lost fuel duty.
– UKIP will ensure that speed cameras are used as a deterrent and not as a revenue raiser for local authorities.
Housing and planning
– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.
– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites. Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.
– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.
– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.
Democracy and the Constitution
– UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues.
– UKIP supports the recall of MPs as was originally promised in the Coalition Agreement, whereby 20% of the electorate in a constituency must sign a recall petition within eight weeks. The approval of MPs will not be required to initiate a recall petition.
– UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.
Law and Order
– UKIP will withdraw from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
– UKIP will reverse the government’s opt-in to EU law and justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant and European Investigation Order. We will replace the EAW with appropriate bi-lateral agreements.
– UKIP will not give prisoners the vote.
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court. Parole should be available for good behaviour on a case-by-case basis, not systematically.
– We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights. The interests of law-abiding citizens & victims will always take precedence over those of criminals.
Culture
– UKIP recognises and values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values, regardless of their ethnic or religious background.
– Official documents will be published in English and, where appropriate Welsh and Scots Gaelic.
– UKIP will ensure that the law is rigorously enforced in relation to ‘cultural’ practices which are illegal in Britain, such as forced marriages, FGM and so-called ‘honour killings’
– We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
– UKIP will amend the smoking ban to give pubs and clubs the choice to open smoking rooms properly ventilated and separated from non-smoking areas.
– UKIP opposes ‘plain paper packaging’ for tobacco products and minimum pricing of alcohol.
Employment and Small Businesses
– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.
– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.
– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications
– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.
– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.
– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.
A lot there seems pretty sensible IMHO...
Protecting jobs and increasing prosperity
- We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness.
– We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage.
– UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.
– We would reoccupy the UK’s vacant seat at the World Trade Organisation, ensuring that we continue to enjoy ‘most favoured nation’ status in trade with the EU, as is required under WTO rules.
Repairing the UK Economy
– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
– Inheritance tax will be abolished.
– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
– UKIP will set up a Treasury Commission to design a turnover tax to ensure big businesses pay a minimum floor rate of tax as a proportion of their UK turnover.
Reducing debts we leave to our grandchildren
– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa, prioritising disaster relief and schemes which provide water and inoculation against preventable diseases.
– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project which is uneconomical and unjustified.
– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.
– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending and give devolved parliaments and assemblies further tax powers to compensate.
Prioritising Education and Skills
– UKIP will introduce an option for students to take an Apprenticeship Qualification instead of four non-core GCSEs which can be continued at A-Level. Students can take up apprenticeships in jobs with certified professionals qualified to grade the progress of the student.
– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.
– UKIP will scrap the target of 50% of school leavers going to university.
– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students.
– UKIP supports the principle of Free Schools that are open to the whole community and uphold British values.
– Existing schools will be allowed to apply to become grammar schools and select according to ability and aptitude. Selection ages will be flexible and determined by the school in consultation with the local authority.
– Schools will be investigated by OFSTED on the presentation of a petition to the Department for Education signed by 25% of parents or governors.
Honouring the Military Covenant
– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.
– UKIP will guarantee those who have served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of 12 years a job in the police force, prison service or border force
– UKIP will change the points system for social housing to give priority to ex-service men and women and those returning from active service.
– A Veterans Department will bring together all veterans services to ensure servicemen and women get the after-service care they deserve.
– Veterans are to receive a Veterans’ Service Card to ensure they are fast tracked for mental health care and services, if needed.
– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.
– UKIP supports a National Service Medal for all those who have served in the armed forces.
The National Health Service
– UKIP will ensure the NHS is free at the point of delivery and time of need for all UK residents.
– We will stop further use of PFI in the NHS and encourage local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts early where this is affordable.
– We will ensure that GPs’ surgeries are open at least one evening per week, where there is demand for it.
– UKIP opposes plans to charge patients for visiting their GP.
–We will ensure that visitors to the UK, and migrants until they have paid NI for five years, have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa. UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.
– We will replace Monitor and the Care Quality Commission with elected county health boards to be more responsive scrutineers of local health services. These will be able to inspect health services and take evidence from whistle-blowers.
– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.
– We will ensure foreign health service professionals coming to work in the NHS are properly qualified and can speak English to a standard acceptable to the profession.
– UKIP will amend working time rules to give trainee doctors, surgeons and medics the proper environment to train and practise.
– There will be a duty on all health service staff to report low standards of care.
Controlling and managing our borders
– UKIP recognises the benefits of limited, controlled immigration.
– UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.
– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.
– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years and will only be eligible for permanent residence after ten years.
– UKIP will reinstate the primary purpose rule for bringing foreign spouses and children to the UK.
– UKIP will not offer an amnesty for illegal immigrants or those gaining British passports through fraud.
– UKIP will return to the principles of the UN Convention of Refugees which serves to protect the most vulnerable.
Foreign Aid
– UKIP will target foreign aid at healthcare initiatives, inoculations against preventable diseases and clean water programmes with a much-reduced aid budget administered by the Foreign Office.
– British organisations will be offered the contracts to deliver the remaining aid following removal of the EU Procurement Directive.
Energy
– UKIP will repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18bn a year.
– UKIP supports a diverse energy market including coal, nuclear, shale gas, geo-thermal, tidal, solar, conventional gas and oil.
– We will scrap the Large Combustion Plant Directive and encourage the re-development of British power stations, as well as industrial units providing on-site power generation.
– UKIP supports the development of shale gas with proper safeguards for the local environment. Community Improvement Levy money from the development of shale gas fields will be earmarked for lower council taxes or community projects within the local authority being developed.
– There will be no new subsidies for wind farms and solar arrays.
– UKIP will abolish green taxes and charges in order to reduce fuel bills.
Agriculture and Fishing
– By leaving the EU, the UK will leave the Common Agricultural Policy. Outside the EU UKIP will institute a British Single Farm Payment for farms.
– UKIP will let the British parliament vote on GM foods.
– UKIP will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and reinstate British territorial waters.
– Foreign trawlers would have to apply for and purchase fishing permits to fish British waters when fish stocks have returned to sustainable levels.
– Food must be labelled to include the country of origin, method of production, method of slaughter, hormones and any genetic additives.
– UKIP will abolish the export of live animals for slaughter
Welfare and Childcare
– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax because it operates unfairly, penalising those who are unable to find alternative accommodation and taking insufficient account of the needs of families and the disabled.
– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only.
– UKIP will ensure there is an initial presumption of 50/50 shared parenting in child custody matters and grandparents will be given visitation rights.
– UKIP supports a simplified, streamlined welfare system and a benefit cap.
Transport
– We will scrap HS2.
– UKIP opposes tolls on public roads and will let existing contracts for running toll roads expire.
– UKIP will maintain pensioner bus passes.
– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc, before entry to the UK, in order to contribute to the upkeep of UK roads and any lost fuel duty.
– UKIP will ensure that speed cameras are used as a deterrent and not as a revenue raiser for local authorities.
Housing and planning
– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.
– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites. Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.
– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.
– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.
Democracy and the Constitution
– UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues.
– UKIP supports the recall of MPs as was originally promised in the Coalition Agreement, whereby 20% of the electorate in a constituency must sign a recall petition within eight weeks. The approval of MPs will not be required to initiate a recall petition.
– UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.
Law and Order
– UKIP will withdraw from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
– UKIP will reverse the government’s opt-in to EU law and justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant and European Investigation Order. We will replace the EAW with appropriate bi-lateral agreements.
– UKIP will not give prisoners the vote.
– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court. Parole should be available for good behaviour on a case-by-case basis, not systematically.
– We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights. The interests of law-abiding citizens & victims will always take precedence over those of criminals.
Culture
– UKIP recognises and values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values, regardless of their ethnic or religious background.
– Official documents will be published in English and, where appropriate Welsh and Scots Gaelic.
– UKIP will ensure that the law is rigorously enforced in relation to ‘cultural’ practices which are illegal in Britain, such as forced marriages, FGM and so-called ‘honour killings’
– We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
– UKIP will amend the smoking ban to give pubs and clubs the choice to open smoking rooms properly ventilated and separated from non-smoking areas.
– UKIP opposes ‘plain paper packaging’ for tobacco products and minimum pricing of alcohol.
Employment and Small Businesses
– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.
– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.
– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications
– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.
– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.
– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.
A lot there seems pretty sensible IMHO...
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
Completely agree, "Should women be discreet when breastfeeding in public?" would be a far better question to ask
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
It does seem very sensible indeed. Or though small in the grand scale of things, I think this is a great idea.
UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
I was only opening up the discussion as its plastered all over Twitter at the minute. I confess my onlyintention was to get the response that westdene seagull gave me. As for the debate itself I think mothers should be able to breastfeed where they please. If you feel uncomfortable I'd suggest you just don't look or maybe you (not you personally) could sit in the corner instead.
Creaky
Well-known member
What a strange response - do you really understand what Marxism is?
Capitalists are far more interested in and are striving towards a system of a global economy, the removal of political borders and the free movement of labour and capital than Karl Marx ever envisaged!
As regards immigration then yes I do have a problem with the way in which this currently manifests itself - not though in the self interested way that many seem to but rather that emigration is hindering the progress and economic future of the less economically developed countries they are coming from. We should not be encouraging those who can do far more good in their own countries to come here for our benefit.
I do have a longer term vision in which it's not where someone's mother actually lived when they gave birth that determines an individuals potential to develop and become a productive member of society.
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
My wife doesn't breastfeed in public, honestly it would make her feel uncomfortable, so she takes a bottle. If she ever did she would most certainly cover the breast with a cloth.
For me it's not an issue where they do it, but it would certainly make me uncomfortable if I accidently got a glance of a baby suckling on a full breast. I would feel that I have invaded her and the baby's space.
*** note to self - must try not to be so bloody predictable ***
What a strange response - do you really understand what Marxism is?
Capitalists are far more interested in and are striving towards a system of a global economy, the removal of political borders and the free movement of labour and capital than Karl Marx ever envisaged!
Indeed. The country that's probably closest to Cunning Fergus's view of the world, with its ring-fenced borders, is the avowededly Marxist North Korea. The breaking down of national barriers is a by-product of globalisation
I daresay some "tit" will start a new thread on this. Glad you've "nipped" it in the bud with the actual way it was put over, rather than "feeding" the bullshit that will be printed.
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 27,951
How is poor old Nigel supposed to remember that lot on his own ? It's far too much to get down on a fag packet, even a plain white one ?
Hastings gull
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2013
- 4,635
What a strange response - do you really understand what Marxism is?
Capitalists are far more interested in and are striving towards a system of a global economy, the removal of political borders and the free movement of labour and capital than Karl Marx ever envisaged!
As regards immigration then yes I do have a problem with the way in which this currently manifests itself - not though in the self interested way that many seem to but rather that emigration is hindering the progress and economic future of the less economically developed countries they are coming from. We should not be encouraging those who can do far more good in their own countries to come here for our benefit.
I do have a longer term vision in which it's not where someone's mother actually lived when they gave birth that determines an individuals potential to develop and become a productive member of society.
Thanks for this and I see what you are getting at in your middle para. But you surely are not suggesting that the majority of the immigrants that we have, would be better off contributing at home. Many are poorly skilled, if at all, and wish to risk life and limb on the med, precisely because they see no future in their own country. IF you are referring to, say, doctors and other medical staff, whom we train and then they elect to stay here instead of going home to put their expertise to local use, then that is a totally different matter, and we could rightly question the morality of this.
Your last para describes a situation which we would all presumably support, but as you say it is a long term vision, I fear, in fact massively long!
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,767
What a strange response - do you really understand what Marxism is?
Capitalists are far more interested in and are striving towards a system of a global economy, the removal of political borders and the free movement of labour and capital than Karl Marx ever envisaged!
As regards immigration then yes I do have a problem with the way in which this currently manifests itself - not though in the self interested way that many seem to but rather that emigration is hindering the progress and economic future of the less economically developed countries they are coming from. We should not be encouraging those who can do far more good in their own countries to come here for our benefit.
I do have a longer term vision in which it's not where someone's mother actually lived when they gave birth that determines an individuals potential to develop and become a productive member of society.
Yes I do, but you are confusing the motives of Marxists and capitalists.
Marx advocated the removal of any national cultural, religious and political constructs that meant “workers” from different countries could be set against each other. Albeit, he was a hypocrite too as he considered patriotism a useful short term mechanism if it facilitated the overthrow the ruling classes and bourgeois. Most people are hypocrites………..it’s not exclusive to Marxists.
Anyway, following the removal of these constructs the workers would establish cooperative governing models which would connect with other similar models thus achieving an international proletariat. Once in train this would naturally mean nationalities and their associated cultural dimensions would cease to exist. Hoo-ray for the Marxists.
The Green Party is essentially seeking the same derivative with its objective to render the existing construct of nationality an irrelevance. You agree with this objective, and your final sentence is a case in point. You don’t see any value in the traditional national political construct ergo, you are have strong Marxist tendencies.
In contrast the removal of political borders to facilitate the free movement of labour is definitely an ultra-capitalist idea which only benefits big business and monetarists (i.e. ruling classes and the bourgoise).
Now subject to what sense of political nationalism people have (you don’t have any by the way) the workers in the UK are being crushed by this capitalist position, however immigrant workers are benefitting, albeit they don’t see that they are being exploited.
Pro EU supporters (like you undoubtedly are) are willing to support the ultra-capitalists because breaking down the national political construct is their primary objective these days. The devastation of UK workers conditions and pay on the altar of wanton capitalism is a sacrifice they are willing to make because they console themselves that at least non UK workers are benefitting and the more there are, so indigenous national political, religious and cultural constructs are destroyed.
MARXISM.
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,767
OK, so using your logic, the most capitalist country in the world despises nationalism, its own anthems, its own cultural constructs, its own religious identity, has no border controls and the immigration of workers from other countries is not a political problem at all?
Jeez, and you say I’m confused.
pastafarian
Well-known member
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
Don't get me wrong I've been there. When I used to work in a coffee shop there were quite a few mums that would openly breast feed. At first I was embarrassed and likewise felt like I was intruding but after a while I realised it wasn't about me. If a mother is comfortable enough to breastfeed in public then fair play to her and far be it from me to deny her of that right just because it makes (or made) me feel a bit uncomfortable. But to each their own I suppose.
brighton fella
New member
- Mar 20, 2009
- 1,645
yeh exactly just like the ice age 2.6 million years ago when dinosaurs were polluting the planet
