Ched Evans

[Stato]

He does not need to admit guilt to show remorse.

As I understand it, although Evans claims he is innocent he does not dispute that he got a message from his mate telling him that he had a girl with him and decided to re-route his cab to the hotel, get a second key and let himself into the room whilst they were having sex. At which point somebody suggested that he join in. It seems a very unusual response to such a text message and begs the question to me as to what previous experience did he have to predict his friend's reaction to his arrival?

I have heard nothing from him which says that, although he disputes that he committed a crime, what he has admitted to doing was exploitative and showed an arrogance and disregard for women, was an abuse of the power granted by minor celebrity status and that he would be willing to work to educate in the dangers of treating women as being pieces of meat there for the needs of rich young men.

He has shown no sign that he admits to any culpability and until he does so, he will continue to come across as a person in a very privileged position who believes that he is the victim and expects his position of privilege back with no evidence that he has learned anything from the experience and is willing to make any effort to help to change the societal circumstances which allowed this kind of thing to happen.

I take my daughters to the football and, regardless of his rights of employment, should my football club re-employ someone who has done something like this and not made every effort possible to try to show that they regret their attitude and actions, I feel that I would have no option as a father than to cancel our tickets.

 

[marshy68]

Did you actually read what I wrote? It's like you've answered someone else, or just assumed what I'd said.

yep I did, your penultimate paragraph talks in detail about making people do some sort of community service based work until "we" feel they can entertain us... I assumed that this would have been an add on to the custodial sentence? You may have a point if that was the original sentence, but I think a community sentence for rape wouldnt go down too well, given the reaction to Evans serving 2.5 years in prison and now trying to resume his career.

 

[Bold Seagull]

yep I did, your penultimate paragraph talks in detail about making people do some sort of community service based work until "we" feel they can entertain us... I assumed that this would have been an add on to the custodial sentence? You may have a point if that was the original sentence, but I think a community sentence for rape wouldnt go down too well, given the reaction to Evans serving 2.5 years in prison and now trying to resume his career.

I'm not saying a community sentence for rape - I've said that once they've completed their sentence determined by the courts, the FA could have their own sanctions upon a player committing such a crime - such as a community 'like' grass roots programme or something, as you've said an add-on. You're out of prison, and it is in effect a reintroduction / reintegration to football. It would be a demonstration of commitment to the love of the sport. This is a game whereby you are paid to play football in front of people. Regardless of your punishment under the law, you have seriously tarnished the reputation of the sport you represent and shouldn't expect to walk straight back into it. He hasn't been punished by the sport at all.

He'd be pretty unique among almost all sections of society to serve a prison term for rape, then walk straight back and resume his career where he left off. I doubt there is anyone leaving prison that is able to do that.

Wouldn't it be better for him to now do something that shows his commitment to getting back into the game, something that gave something back and may even be rewarding for him? Would people be more prepared to accept that he's worked his way back to deserving a place within footballs professionals?

 

[Skylar]

Rapists should be castrated.

 

[marshy68]

I'm not saying a community sentence for rape - I've said that once they've completed their sentence determined by the courts, the FA could have their own sanctions upon a player committing such a crime - such as a community 'like' grass roots programme or something, as you've said an add-on. You're out of prison, and it is in effect a reintroduction / reintegration to football. It would be a demonstration of commitment to the love of the sport. This is a game whereby you are paid to play football in front of people. Regardless of your punishment under the law, you have seriously tarnished the reputation of the sport you represent and shouldn't expect to walk straight back into it. He hasn't been punished by the sport at all.

He'd be pretty unique among almost all sections of society to serve a prison term for rape, then walk straight back and resume his career where he left off. I doubt there is anyone leaving prison that is able to do that.

Wouldn't it be better for him to now do something that shows his commitment to getting back into the game, something that gave something back and may even be rewarding for him? Would people be more prepared to accept that he's worked his way back to deserving a place within footballs professionals?

Here in lies the problem in our society and why so many people re-offend. Giving people a job and a purpose after they have spent time in prison is the key to keeping them out of prison again. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling its just because he is a footballer, that he shouldnt be able to walk back into football. Would you feel the same if he was a labourer or a carpenter?

 

[keaton]

Here in lies the problem in our society and why so many people re-offend. Giving people a job and a purpose after they have spent time in prison is the key to keeping them out of prison again. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling its just because he is a footballer, that he shouldnt be able to walk back into football. Would you feel the same if he was a labourer or a carpenter?

I don't think a labourer found guilty of rape should be able to walk back into football no

 

[Bold Seagull]

Here in lies the problem in our society and why so many people re-offend. Giving people a job and a purpose after they have spent time in prison is the key to keeping them out of prison again. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling its just because he is a footballer, that he shouldnt be able to walk back into football. Would you feel the same if he was a labourer or a carpenter?

No I wouldn't, nor any number of professions or trades where it would be suitable for someone with a conviction to get their life back on track. Would I be happy with Rolf Harris or Stuart Hall walking back into broadcasting / entertaining? No. Would I want a medical professional caring for me or a member of my family straight after a conviction, no. So you can't just apply a blanket scenario over all roles and professions.

I suspect most labourers and carpenters would have to go back to their employers cap in hand for letting them down, and earn the right to be trusted by their employer again. Probably taken on for a probationary period, and work their way back into their trade. This is how it should be. What you're saying is it's fine for Evans to come straight out, straight into a contract, straight into first team football. That is an abysmal message for football to send out - and it's getting pretty clear supporters and sponsors feel the same way.

 

[marshy68]

I don't think a labourer found guilty of rape should be able to walk back into football no

Thanks for your contribution

 

[marshy68]

No I wouldn't, nor any number of professions or trades where it would be suitable for someone with a conviction to get their life back on track. Would I be happy with Rolf Harris or Stuart Hall walking back into broadcasting / entertaining? No. Would I want a medical professional caring for me or a member of my family straight after a conviction, no. So you can't just apply a blanket scenario over all roles and professions.

I suspect most labourers and carpenters would have to go back to their employers cap in hand for letting them down, and earn the right to be trusted by their employer again. Probably taken on for a probationary period, and work their way back into their trade. This is how it should be. What you're saying is it's fine for Evans to come straight out, straight into a contract, straight into first team football. That is an abysmal message for football to send out - and it's getting pretty clear supporters and sponsors feel the same way.

He hasnt signed a contract and as far as I understand is just training with them. But ulitmately having served his time, yes I feel he should be free to practice his trade and earn a living how he chooses. It remains to be seen if any club will take a punt on him, maybe in a few weeks when the media hype has died down. I really dont agree with you that its a terrible message that football is sending out. It depends how you spin it. It could be a football club giving a young man a second chance to rebuild his life?

 

[spring hall convert]

Am i a weird ****er because I have views that you don't agree with? Did I mention 'kicks' I'm sure I didn't. Said will 'look forward' to bouncing this thread should his conviction be quashed, I didn't say 'I will get a kick out of bouncing this thread.'

As for 'insensitive' not in the least. Plenty of posters have contributed to the thread, the tile of the thread 'Ched Evans' kind of offers a clue as to whats it content is likely to contain, if for some subscibers to NSC the subject matter is an emotive one for whatever reason, then simply don't open the thread.

Resorting to personal insults against posters who have views that differ to yours detracts rather than adds to the validity of your arguements in my opinion.

Saw post #488 and edited. However, you have to be very careful with what you are saying. I very much got the impression similar to HKFC that you believed that promiscuous young girls deserved no protection from the law. There was one part where you insinuated there was implied consent for Evans that would have ridiculous consequences if we all acted on it.

 

[Beach Seagull]

The views you express in this thread are deeply, deeply offensive to any right minded individual. You are quite within your rights to think that Ched Evans should be allowed to play football again, I'm sure that many agree with you. You may even believe him to be innocent, hell he MAY even be innocent.

All this other sub- Dapper Laughs rape apologist garbage is disgusting. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself. I can only surmise that you or someone close to you has never been the victim of a sex crime.
And what was all that about Marlon King about as well? Are you a closet racist as well as a confirmed sexist?

Deeply offensive? Because I believe Ched Evans is innocent?

What does 'Dapper Laughs rape apologist mean? Never come across this saying before. Would you be able to provide some examples of 'all this' for me please?

As for 'someone close to me being a victim of a sex crime' I'm not on here to discuss my private life.

Ah yes the 'sexist' and 'racist' card is played just because I have expressed views that go against the trendy leftist elite on here. How an earth does me believing Ched Evans is innocent make me a 'sexist?' I firmly believe the court of appeal will quash his conviction.

As for 'racist' for citing Marlon Kings case, very selective however aren't you, as I also alluded to Luke McCormick and Lee Hughes as examples of footballers who have taken lives but allowed to re-join the proffession. I didn't 'pick' on Marlon King in isolation I used other examples. Does it make me 'gingerist' because I alluded to Lee Hughes.

How sad that just because I believe a man to be innocent I get labelled a sexist and racist. I would imagine you are the type of person who believes in 'diversity' and 'tolerance' but is willing to insult someone whose views differ to yours. Practice what you preach.

 

[spring hall convert]

Shut up you mongs, you won't change each others minds so maybe stop arguing and do something useful with your lives?

There's something weird going on here. Why would 2 posters from signed up in 2010, with no posting history to speak of come out of the woodwork on this issue in particular?

- Beach Seagull vehemently defending Evans.

- Then this one is even more peculiar. Of all the crappy long threads we've had on here since May 2010, this poster comes out to tell us to stop talking about this. I would say that on a football forum, this is a fairly reasonable subject to be having a long debate about.

Fishy.

 

[spring hall convert]

Deeply offensive? Because I believe Ched Evans is innocent?

What does 'Dapper Laughs rape apologist mean? Never come across this saying before. Would you be able to provide some examples of 'all this' for me please?

As for 'someone close to me being a victim of a sex crime' I'm not on here to discuss my private life.

Ah yes the 'sexist' and 'racist' card is played just because I have expressed views that go against the trendy leftist elite on here. How an earth does me believing Ched Evans is innocent make me a 'sexist?' I firmly believe the court of appeal will quash his conviction.

As for 'racist' for citing Marlon Kings case, very selective however aren't you, as I also alluded to Luke McCormick and Lee Hughes as examples of footballers who have taken lives but allowed to re-join the proffession. I didn't 'pick' on Marlon King in isolation I used other examples. Does it make me 'gingerist' because I alluded to Lee Hughes.

How sad that just because I believe a man to be innocent I get labelled a sexist and racist. I would imagine you are the type of person who believes in 'diversity' and 'tolerance' but is willing to insult someone whose views differ to yours. Practice what you preach.

See post 610 again, I'd already edited it by the time you responded. However, some of your language on this thread is ill thought out and probably detracted rather than added to the point you were making. I saw your denial in post 488 and edited as I thought it best to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Beach Seagull]

There's something weird going on here. Why would 2 posters from signed up in 2010, with no posting history to speak of come out of the woodwork on this issue in particular?

- Beach Seagull vehemently defending Evans.

- Then this one is even more peculiar. Of all the crappy long threads we've had on here since May 2010, this poster comes out to tell us to stop talking about this. I would say that on a football forum, this is a fairly reasonable subject to be having a long debate about.

Fishy.

Notice you didn't respond to my post did you. I have got 330 posts!! Thats not out of the woodwork is it!! Yes a fair amount of them on this thread, but have posted on many others. Would you care to elaborate on your 'fishy' theory please? What is the 'weird?' I'm intrigued.

 

[Beach Seagull]

See post 610 again, I'd already edited it by the time you responded. However, some of your language on this thread is ill thought out and probably detracted rather than added to the point you were making. I saw your denial in post 488 and edited as I thought it best to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You haven't addressed any of l the points I made. My belief in Ched Evans innocence? The fact I didn't just allude to Marlon King but 2 other footballers? Labelling me 'sexist' and 'racist' because my views differ to yours?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Sheffield United are obviously GAGGING to re-employ the convicted rapist. By letting him train, they're testing the water as to the reaction. With patrons disassociating themselves from the club and sponsors threatening to pull out, they now have a pretty good idea what the reaction would be if they re-employed him. And that's not even counting the potential STH reaction. By all means allow the guy to try to resume his trade. But whether anybody wants to be associated with him is quite another matter.

 

[spring hall convert]

Notice you didn't respond to my post did you. I have got 330 posts!! Thats not out of the woodwork is it!! Yes a fair amount of them on this thread, but have posted on many others. Would you care to elaborate on your 'fishy' theory please? What is the 'weird?' I'm intrigued.

See post 613, I did respond.

Just that. I think it's weird. Statistically odd that 2 posters who post so sporadically, joined around the same time, end up on the same controversial thread.

 

[drew]

But there was a huge public and media outcry over what Lee Hughes did. Its more noticeable this this round because of the huge increase in social media, etc since Hughes committed his crime, though.

There are important differences between the two cases though. Hughes admitted his guilt, and has shown contrition / remorse - these are not abstract ideals, btw - they are basic tenets of our penal / rehabilitation systems.

As [MENTION=21414]Del Fenner[/MENTION] has mentioned above, the most basic understanding of the law, suggests that having been found guilty, and having shown no remorse, Evans should not even be out on license, let alone back playing football.

You cannot really compare the two. Hughes killed someone which is not a disputed fact. He ran away, again not a disputed fact. He didn't go out to commit that act and hence he couldn't really fail to admit guilt and subsequently show remorse. Evans never denied having sex but he claims it was consensual whereas the girl claims she can't remember.

If a doctor was found guilty of abuse/rape/molesting etc. he will be struck off. He would then have to find a job as a painter and decorator or go back to India or something. The FA should have rules which state that any player found guilty of a crime (specific serious crimes) is forbidden from playing in the English FA/PL/FL. End Of.

Nothing like a bit of intelligence to add to the debate.

Saw post #488 and edited. However, you have to be very careful with what you are saying. I very much got the impression similar to HKFC that you believed that promiscuous young girls deserved no protection from the law. There was one part where you insinuated there was implied consent for Evans that would have ridiculous consequences if we all acted on it.

I think no one is saying promiscuous girls (of any age) or, for that matter, prostitutes and sex workers, don't deserve protection from the law. However, there is a grey area when someone who may be promiscuous has regretted a 'liaison' and then cries rape. The other party also deserves protection as well! Finding the truth then becomes a minefield!

 

[SAC]

I think no one is saying promiscuous girls (of any age) or, for that matter, prostitutes and sex workers, don't deserve protection from the law. However, there is a grey area when someone who may be promiscuous has regretted a 'liaison' and then cries rape. The other party also deserves protection as well! Finding the truth then becomes a minefield!

If only there was a process to decide who is telling the truth or not.

Oh, hang on...

 

[spring hall convert]

You haven't addressed any of l the points I made. My belief in Ched Evans innocence? The fact I didn't just allude to Marlon King but 2 other footballers? Labelling me 'sexist' and 'racist' because my views differ to yours?

You are fine to believe in Ched Evans innocence. I like, HKFC thought you were making wider implications about young women outside of the context of this case. You cleared that up in 488.

You continually use sexist language and atttiudes in the early part of this thread without making it clear that you are referring specifically to this case

This bit was horrid from post 268

"Hate the way the papers label him 'rapist' as if he is some filthy pervert waiting in a dimly lit alleyway dragging a girl into the bushes. If she had 'met' Evans before McDonald she no doubt would've gone back to his hotel with him especially when the word 'footballer' was mentioned. He didn't stand a chance at that trial in the 'all men are rapists' climate that we exist in here. "

All rape is rape and you suggest that Evans (or anyone for that matter) could have assumed consent.

post 277 - "A pervert hiding in the bushes is a rapist a guy sh*gg*ng some little t*rt who has willingly gone back to a hotel after meeting someone for 1 minute is not. She smelt the pound notes compensation when she realised he was a footballer. Dont care what the right on brigade say he is not a rapist, she was a drunken little t*rt who was pretty much anyones that night, decent young girls dont go back to a guys hotel within minutes of meeting them."

That is rape apologist language.

post 294 "Why would I have any disdain for guys who have 'pulled?' Its what blokes do!!!"

It may not have been your intention but you compare a convicted rapist to someone on a night out on the pull.

post 302 "I wonder if there would be such vitroil in the media and on here if Ched Evans was from an ethnic minority? Doubt it very much as it would be sailing too close to 'racism.' Don't remember such a backlash against Marlon King when he emerged from prison and signed for Coventry after being convicted of 'assault of young women who rejected his advances.' Don't remember (but willing to be corrected) a long condemnation thread on NSC, don't remember 'on-line petitions' either calling for him not to be employed as a professional footballer again. "

What did that have to do with it? It was you that brought up race first. A really crass point.

Those are what I based my post on which I retracted after reading post 488. Your tone definitely changed, you had a morning of being pretty vile back there.