Brilliant stuff from David Cameron today

[Miami Seagull]

Do you know what's really depressing about this thread? The assumption that if you're not swallowing Cameron's UKPLC vision of the future then you must be a Labour voter. Most of you have narrowed your horizons to voting for which of the two main political parties isn't the crappest.

We should all be angry at the moment, the politcal elite of the centre right and centre left has gradually sold our country from under our feet in the last 35 years and we just take it. And look at us now, we're skint, we own precious little of our own means of production, there's major institutional scandals left, right and centre and we're blowing hot air up the PM's arse about a tax bribe that isn't even going to happen.

What's wrong with us all? Seriously.

Usually stay away from political debate in public, but have to say that is an excellent post. Really can't understand how anyone can get excited about the crap that comes out of the mouths of our politicians anymore. It's got as bad as here in the US now.

 

[Baldseagull]

From most of the posts I have read, I detect very few floating voters, seems like most of you have your colours nailed firmly on.

Very disappointing to see so many closed minds, using so many cliched arguments.

 

[fat old seagull]

Blimey, you start an innocent and harmless topical thread and when you come back to it, it's gone crazy.

Yes, something about a nest, hornets and a stick spring to mind. I'm surprised you thought it otherwise

But it's fun to watch ............ at a distance.

 

[mikeyjh]

so in your view those earning less more than £10k are "the rich"? because taken together, thats what your comments say. of course, i dont expect you mean that at all, so must conclude you rolled out a cliche.

That's a strange conclusion to reach - I have a very simple point here, and that's the fact that they have chosen to penalise the most needy to pay for tax cuts that benefit those with more. The families that will benefit the most from policies of this conference are the very richest - It might very well be a cliché, but that doesn't stop it being true.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

From most of the posts I have read, I detect very few floating voters, seems like most of you have your colours nailed firmly on.

Very disappointing to see so many closed minds, using so many cliched arguments.

I am a floating voter and have been for many years.
I so agree with everything SHC has posted on this thread.

 

[Kevlar]

Increase tax on buy-2-lets is my solution. This will free up some property to bring house prices down.

Keynes was in favour of euthanasia of the rentier class
a worthy aim to which policy should be directed
dysfunctional markets should be regulated by democratically elected
government.

 

[luge]

It's funny how much times have changed. Cameron's speech was well delivered and had a very clear message - and it seems that the content of it has proven to be more popular than Milliband 's last week (despite the left leaning twitteratti shouting it down).

The reasons why are pretty clear. He's made a compelling argument for the NHS (despite what the tories have done to it already), and he's promised two big tax cuts to seemingly help out two key sections of society -the low paid and the middle paid.

Paying for that is a different matter. And this is where it comes down to social and personal politics. The raising of the income free tax bracket is good, but those who will feel the benefit more are the ones who earn more - by the tune of double.

Also by cutting these taxes, the tories have also stated that benefits will take a hit -which will again make a huge hit on those who need them. There is also an unanswered question of national insurance which still has to be paid at all levels. Does that rise?

Essentially Cameron is applying ultra thatcherite policies, and probably winning with them.

The psychology of the nation has been significantly altered by years of deficit chat, we are all more cautious with our money and money is much harder to come by.

These are policies that would have been laughed when. Cameron took over - when labour still had a vast majority, despite an unpopular leader.

Personally, I am still unsure of where I stand. I was brought up in a climate of everyone hating the tories, and their name being mud. The Lib Dens have always been a safe bet from me, but now they too are a non entity.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Increase tax on buy-2-lets is my solution. This will free up some property to bring house prices down.

And push rents up.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There is a piece in the news today about how one of the biggest cheers at the conference was when another 3bn of cuts to welfare and benefits was announced. ****ing disgusting way to react. There are some really nasty people about. So glad I have left the UK, really glad.

 

[spring hall convert]

The laws against forced labour were already in place before HRA and removing the HRA would not stop rights lawyers from challenging the legislation they disagree with in the high courts. We're extremely fortunate that the judiciary is completely independent from the legislative in this country and the processes for challenging would be the same with or without the HRA.

Right to a fair trial - I can't see how making changes to legal aid will diminish a single right as per Article 6 of the HRA https://www.liberty-human-rights.or...human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-hearing

Respect for your private life...etc. Yes, we need to be vigilant but as I've said personal freedom underpins all right-wing democracies.

Islamophobia - I think you're muddling UKIP with EDL/BNP. Both the Tories and UKIP have many Muslim members and supporters. I think you're worrying for nothing.

Freedom of assembly and association - Once again, all parties are guilty of this but there's no right enshrined under the HRA that wasn't already covered by English Law. I'd also add that this is a qualified right under HRA anyway with enough caveats as to make it open to interpretation from governments.

Right to marry - they may have come late to the party but no-one's going to abolish same-sex rights now. I think at times people underestimate the support a lot of gays have for the Tories.

The thing is here, you approach it from a position of where we are now. I approach it from a position of where we could be.

We'll agree to disagree on this one, it's all speculation. You're not going to win me over and clearly I'm not going to win you over.

 

[drew]

It's funny how much times have changed. Cameron's speech was well delivered and had a very clear message - and it seems that the content of it has proven to be more popular than Milliband 's last week (despite the left leaning twitteratti shouting it down).

The reasons why are pretty clear. He's made a compelling argument for the NHS (despite what the tories have done to it already), and he's promised two big tax cuts to seemingly help out two key sections of society -the low paid and the middle paid.

Paying for that is a different matter. And this is where it comes down to social and personal politics. The raising of the income free tax bracket is good, but those who will feel the benefit more are the ones who earn more - by the tune of double.

Also by cutting these taxes, the tories have also stated that benefits will take a hit -which will again make a huge hit on those who need them. There is also an unanswered question of national insurance which still has to be paid at all levels. Does that rise?

Essentially Cameron is applying ultra thatcherite policies, and probably winning with them.

The psychology of the nation has been significantly altered by years of deficit chat, we are all more cautious with our money and money is much harder to come by.

These are policies that would have been laughed when. Cameron took over - when labour still had a vast majority, despite an unpopular leader.

Personally, I am still unsure of where I stand. I was brought up in a climate of everyone hating the tories, and their name being mud. The Lib Dens have always been a safe bet from me, but now they too are a non entity.

The point is not that he is giving tax cuts to a lot of people but that these will only be funded when the deficit is eliminated and we are in surplus. They are saying the deficit will be gone by 2018 however, they said before they would eliminate it by 2015. They haven't even halved it in that time. It was about £170b and is now just over £100b. Taking that literally, in the next three and quarter years he has to find savings of £30b a year when over the last four and half they have only found about £15b per year!!! Once he has balanced the books, he then still has to find savings to fund the tax cuts as well as create this surplus he craves for. With regard to NHS, why would you believe what is said in a speech and ignore what has happened before? No top down organisation of the NHS but that is precisely what they did.

Your assertion that he is winning with them isn't held up in the polls.

 

[Hotchilidog]

It's funny how much times have changed. Cameron's speech was well delivered and had a very clear message - and it seems that the content of it has proven to be more popular than Milliband 's last week (despite the left leaning twitteratti shouting it down).

The reasons why are pretty clear. He's made a compelling argument for the NHS (despite what the tories have done to it already), and he's promised two big tax cuts to seemingly help out two key sections of society -the low paid and the middle paid.

In what world are the 40% tax bracket middle paid? they are the top 15% of earners. Whilst an increase in the personal allowance is not unwelcome, many low paid workers will not benefit as they already earn under £10,000 and the benefits are mostly passed onto the better paid.

It was nothing but a shameless appeal to those who are already ok. The benefits stuff this week from the tories was an absolute disgrace and clearly show where their priorities lie. Their shtick about rewarding hardworking people is total BS as most of the peoples benefits they are set to freeze are already IN WORK, but are paid a pittance and have to receive a top up with working tax credits. The biggest benefit cheats are those companies who get the state to pick up some of their wage bills in the form of working tax credits, all the while they are taking advantage of tax avoidance schemes.

Oh how cheaply people can be bought, even when in all likelihood as a genuine middle earner you will not benefit at all from this gift to the top 15%.

 

[bha100]

So them earning a decent wage, not rich but with a take home pay of between 3k and 6k can be considered a nice earner get the bigger tax cut then, would it not be fair if it was the other way around? let the people on the lower end get the £484 and the better off get the £176.

No i forgot it's the the tories securing a better future ( for the few )

 

[hans kraay fan club]

In what world are the 40% tax bracket middle paid? they are the top 15% of earners. Whilst an increase in the personal allowance is not unwelcome, many low paid workers will not benefit as they already earn under £10,000 and the benefits are mostly passed onto the better paid.

It was nothing but a shameless appeal to those who are already ok. The benefits stuff this week from the tories was an absolute disgrace and clearly show where their priorities lie. Their shtick about rewarding hardworking people is total BS as most of the peoples benefits they are set to freeze are already IN WORK, but are paid a pittance and have to receive a top up with working tax credits. The biggest benefit cheats are those companies who get the state to pick up some of their wage bills in the form of working tax credits, all the while they are taking advantage of tax avoidance schemes.

Oh how cheaply people can be bought, even when in all likelihood as a genuine middle earner you will not benefit at all from this gift to the top 15%.

Excellent post.

Its all so shallow and self-serving. I'm digusted at myself, to be honest for glancing at the table in the paper this morning, showing how much I will save under these (purely theoretical) tax changes.

Its what they want - to make everybody as selfish as they are - so they can buy us all off, one section of society at a time, with false promises. The entire charade is based on discouraging anyone from looking at any wider picture.

 

[luge]

The point is not that he is giving tax cuts to a lot of people but that these will only be funded when the deficit is eliminated and we are in surplus. They are saying the deficit will be gone by 2018 however, they said before they would eliminate it by 2015. They haven't even halved it in that time. It was about £170b and is now just over £100b. Taking that literally, in the next three and quarter years he has to find savings of £30b a year when over the last four and half they have only found about £15b per year!!! Once he has balanced the books, he then still has to find savings to fund the tax cuts as well as create this surplus he craves for.

Quite.

With regard to NHS, why would you believe what is said in a speech and ignore what has happened before? No top down organisation of the NHS but that is precisely what they did.

I don't believe his speech, but from a pure delivery point of view he made a very compelling argument for those who are unaware of these things.

Your assertion that he is winning with them isn't held up in the polls.

Irrelevant at this stage I would suggest. Campaigning has only just started - and the economy has only just started to recover. After years of a Labour government the population sort of decided that they didn't want one in 2010 because of the economic situation which had got out of control. Traditionally, conservative voters don't really scream from the houses about it, including stating intentions in polls.

For the record - I have never voted Tory.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Excellent post.

Its all so shallow and self-serving. I'm digusted at myself, to be honest for glancing at the table in the paper this morning, showing how much I will save under these (purely theoretical) tax changes.

Its what they want - to make everybody as selfish as they are - so they can buy us all off, one section of society at a time, with false promises. The entire charade is based on discouraging anyone from looking at any wider picture.

I would not worry too much about it, I honestly think that the vast majority are so fed up with the lies and false promises from politicians that they are very wary of anything that is said, especially at a conference before an election. It was all what we plan to do but no when and how, surely right minded people will not fall for it again given Camerons track record and Prime Ministers before him.
At the end of the day it is us the public that hold the key to number 10 I wish, somehow, we could all say enough is enough and it is change across the whole of politics in this country that is needed.
All I want is fairness, if they are going to freeze benefits then introduce a higher tax rate for very high earners for the same period then take it away when benefits rise again. Really go after tax dodgers and not the current limp wristed attempt at the moment. Get a really strong hold on the utilities companies, petrol, insurance and trains and all the other industries that are totally ripping off the people who need these services, rich or poor, and insist that they play fair or they will be heavily penalised the current system is pathetic and they are running rings around the government, still. And the banks must pay back a sizeable chunk of the deficit.
As I say, just fairness, but it aint gonna happen, is it.

 

[luge]

In what world are the 40% tax bracket middle paid? they are the top 15% of earners.

In the South East, my friend. I can't remember who it was, but there was someone on here the other day who couldn't afford to by a flat in Brighton for a reasonably large sum of money.

I am just about in the 40% bracket. I live in South East London in an ex council flat. If I want to buy a terraced 3 bed house for my wife (and hopefully family in the future) it would cost me about 700k (for a shit one). The mortgage would be at least 1600 pounds a month, bills included you are looking at around 2100 per month (and that's a best case scenario).

Moving to Brighton etc would be the same. And moving up north or somewhere different doesn't mean much as I wouldn't be able to earn the same sort of money.

Thus the whole concept of being in the 40% bracket meaning that you are well paid is a bit of a fallacy. It depends how far you are into it and what your circumstances are.

Whilst an increase in the personal allowance is not unwelcome, many low paid workers will not benefit as they already earn under £10,000 and the benefits are mostly passed onto the better paid.

I made this point already.

It was nothing but a shameless appeal to those who are already ok. The benefits stuff this week from the tories was an absolute disgrace and clearly show where their priorities lie. Their shtick about rewarding hardworking people is total BS as most of the peoples benefits they are set to freeze are already IN WORK, but are paid a pittance and have to receive a top up with working tax credits. The biggest benefit cheats are those companies who get the state to pick up some of their wage bills in the form of working tax credits, all the while they are taking advantage of tax avoidance schemes.

I certainly agree that big companies should be paying more tax. I think the money grabbing take all from the city is a bit disgusting and has pretty much made it a bloody nightmare for most people to get on in life because of the effect on the housing market.

Oh how cheaply people can be bought, even when in all likelihood as a genuine middle earner you will not benefit at all from this gift to the top 15%.

You'll get an extra 500 quid. Those on 20k plus probably don't claim benefits, thus that is what the tories are betting on.

Ironically, most of this is all linked to RPI for when they are announcing that it would happen - so in theory is SHOULD happen anyway.

 

[Ludensian Gull]

I'm now a full time carer since last month . I use money from my rent from the 2 flats to cover my costs.

I'm a full time carer without the luxury of other property income and to be honest we are struggling to make ends meet at the moment. Only wish I was being payed the minimum wage. By the way you should be receiving £61.35

 

[Southern Scouse]

Tax-free personal allowance to be raised from £10,500 to £12,500
40% rate raised from £41,900 to £50,000
Abolish zero-hour contracts
NHS budget protected

...and much, much more.

A veritable masterclass in how to deliver to an audience unlike forgetful Ed.

I hope Miliband has not paid a deposit for the removal men next year.

All he did was nick all the ideas from the looney liberals.
Ed is an educated turnip, fortunately though it's not a presidential election.
Labour will win, without the help of any other party.

 

[Hotchilidog]

In the South East, my friend. I can't remember who it was, but there was someone on here the other day who couldn't afford to by a flat in Brighton for a reasonably large sum of money.

I am just about in the 40% bracket. I live in South East London in an ex council flat. If I want to buy a terraced 3 bed house for my wife (and hopefully family in the future) it would cost me about 700k (for a shit one). The mortgage would be at least 1600 pounds a month, bills included you are looking at around 2100 per month (and that's a best case scenario).

Moving to Brighton etc would be the same. And moving up north or somewhere different doesn't mean much as I wouldn't be able to earn the same sort of money.

Thus the whole concept of being in the 40% bracket meaning that you are well paid is a bit of a fallacy. It depends how far you are into it and what your circumstances are. .

It might not feel like it, but you are well off compared to most people. I understand that the cost of living is high, but then I suppose I could adopt the language of the conservatives I could start to tell you to A stop spending your money anything but essentials B Quit moaning and and move somewhere cheaper C Get a better job or any number of patronising and vindictive sh*t that gets thrown at the disabled, unemployed and low paid workers who have to make the sacrifices that would fund this tax break for the 40%ers. I'm not having a pop at you but just pointing out how these mendacious f*ckers like to divide the populace whilst they carry on feathering the beds of their wealthy friends.

This cabinet full to the brim with inherited and married money has no idea what it's like to actually earn a living and couldn't give stuff about those who.