Religion is the cause of all problems...

[Silk]

The problem with your thought experiments is that you are not considering that time is a construct of the physical universe as perceived by life. A deity would possibly exist in a timeless realm, so the concepts of "beginning" and "end" may not apply to it - it either is or it isn't, so perhaps in the case of God, it is and has always been.

Can you explain and describe what a "timeless realm" would be like?

 

[El Presidente]

It's a ridiculous conceit that the universe was created as part of a loving relationship between a deity and a species that been around for the equivalent of 1 second in the 24 hour life of the universe.

 

[Silk]

Someone else asked that, I replied on post 208 with the following:

Consider a realm where there is no matter, no time, no space, no physics, etc - a reality before the universe existed. Questions like "where" and "when" make no sense, they don't apply.

If God does exist, it does not have a beginning, or come from a place - as it preceded the existence of time and space.

Hmm.. Isn't this a bit.. Meaningless? If it exists in a timeless realm, it can't have preceded time, as that implies it was part of a temporal sequence that began before time existed. Which is clearly illogical. Similarly it's hard to imagine how something can be said to "exist" beyond space.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Thanks to Einstein, we understand the nature of God better than ever.

Seeing as it's late and I've had a few beers I feel like clarifying my position in regards to spirituality, if anyone cares.

I feel absolutely certain that God exists, just like many atheists will feel certain that it doesn't. Of course I concede that I could be wrong about that, just as all of us could be wrong about anything talking from a Cartesian point of view. I believe in God not through religion, but through study, experience and plain old intuition.

For the last decade or so I have spent a lot of time trying to understand what God actually is. For the same reason as atheists, I found many of the descriptions by the Abrahamic religions of God highly questionable. But it's important to remember they were founded a long time ago, long before we knew what we do today through science, so the people of that time personified and anthropomorphised God as that was the only way they could comprehend it. I don't think they are wrong as such, certainly not as wrong as atheists, as long you consider their interpretations to be symbolic and metaphoric rather than literal. Perhaps the Buddhists were more ahead of their time with their interpretation of God, but even they have strongly simplified what I believe to be the truth.

Through science, philosophy, anthropology and quantum physics, I feel closer than ever to understanding the true nature of God. I highly doubt God is a man in the sky, who controls our lives and sends the good to heaven and the bad to hell, it seems these ideas were used in religion as a form of instilling morality into people. I doubt he is this great self aware entity despite probable omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence and so on.

I believe that I am God, and so are you. So is everyone on NSC and every other conscious being in existence. We are all one, we are God - but like a neuron in your brain is not aware that it is part of a greater entity, nor are we. Our brains, our ego and individualism, are obstacles in the realisation of this. These ideas were traditionally known as pantheism, but is increasingly known as biocentrism as an increasing amount of scientists are taking on board what we are learning through quantum physics, which is giving a expontentially greater understanding of reality and ourselves, and that we are not living in a random, nihilistic and deterministic universe afterall.

A superb post

 

[herecomesaregular]

Neither am I, I am what people call Agnostic.

I will not mock anybody who has faith, somehow I think they are probably more at peace with themselves than I am.

Not read the rest of the thread yet but to me this sums up religion - it is a concept made up by man to put his life in context and give him peace of mind. Half of me is envious at someone who has this "belief" (and this inner peace), half of me is annoyed at them as it is so obviously a self delusion. It would be nice to think I could be reunited with loved ones in Heaven..... but it is just a nice fluffy way of dealing with death.

Now I am going to read the rest of the thread and see if anyone can change my mind because I am not of closed opinion.

 

[Wilko]

It maybe true or not, but most people would hope their spirit or whatever may go on in some form after their death. If you are an athiest you probably will be less happy in life.

The complete opposite, religion seems to spend its time worrying about heaven, judgement day, the afterlife and so on, the beauty of atheism for me is that you can forget all that and concentrate on making this life as precious and rewarding as possible. Be good because it brings pleasure and fulfillment, not because you want to buy a place in heaven. Stop worrying about the next life cause there (probably) isnt one, make the most of this one. Dedicating your whole life to something that cannot be proved seems bizarre to me, feeling guilty for eating a certain food or not wearing the clothes an antiquated doctrine tell you to is restrictive, take the shackles off and dip your toes into the freedom of atheism, the water is lovely.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

If God is real, why has he made me an Atheist?

You made yourself an atheist,you are in control of your own destiny,free will to be whoever you choose to be,so God can experience who he is not through you,but this is impossible for you are god,you are a part of the whole and to deny that is to deny who you truly are..

It matters not though,it does not matter at all,if your soul is of good character,that is all that really counts.

 

[Wilko]

You made yourself an atheist,you are in control of your own destiny,free will to be whoever you choose to be,so God can experience who he is not through you,but this is impossible for you are god,you are a part of the whole and to deny that is to deny who you truly are..

It matters not though,it does not matter at all,if your soul is of good character,that is all that really counts.

Doesn't add up, god is supposedly omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing and almighty. He is also a vengeful god. If people have free wil then actually he does not have much control at all otherwise gays, atheists and sinners would be wiped out by now. So what is it? Does he have control ornot cause if he does then he is doing a really shit job.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

The complete opposite, religion seems to spend its time worrying about heaven, judgement day, the afterlife and so on, the beauty of atheism for me is that you can forget all that and concentrate on making this life as precious and rewarding as possible. Be good because it brings pleasure and fulfillment, not because you want to buy a place in heaven. Stop worrying about the next life cause there (probably) isnt one, make the most of this one. Dedicating your whole life to something that cannot be proved seems bizarre to me, feeling guilty for eating a certain food or not wearing the clothes an antiquated doctrine tell you to is restrictive, take the shackles off and dip your toes into the freedom of atheism, the water is lovely.

You are almost there,not man made religion,you are a higher evolved being,and spiritualist,you have faith,be in the moment,live life as if it were the last day,freedom can be had by believers too..

 

[Wilko]

You are almost there,not man made religion,you are a higher evolved being,and spiritualist,you have faith,be in the moment,live life as if it were the last day,freedom can be had by believers too..

Can it? Not sure how you can feel freedom if you believe an almighty power looks over every moment of your entire life from birth to death, not sure how you can feel free if you believe your entire life works towards a judgement day to decide your ultimate fate, not sure how you can be free if you live your life according to a misogynistic, homophobic, violent, rape accepting text written 2000 year ago.

 

[Baldseagull]

Someone else asked that, I replied on post 208 with the following:

Consider a realm where there is no matter, no time, no space, no physics, etc - a reality before the universe existed. Questions like "where" and "when" make no sense, they don't apply.

If God does exist, it does not have a beginning, or come from a place - as it preceded the existence of time and space.

So a being capable of conjuring up the universe out of nothing (God) can just exist without a creator of it's own?
If God exists, and can exist in a state of no physics, no time, no space, no matter, why would he have arms and legs, assuming the Bible is truthful when it says God made man in his own image?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Doesn't add up, god is supposedly omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing and almighty. He is also a vengeful god. If people have free wil then actually he does not have much control at all otherwise gays, atheists and sinners would be wiped out by now. So what is it? Does he have control ornot cause if he does then he is doing a really shit job.

Hitler,for example had free will,a lesson was learned to some degree by his actions,lessons will be lost and have to be re learned again,why does God have to have created a perfect world where every thing is perfect,how would you see perfection without the opposite of perfection..

The Paradox is the world is perfect..

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Can it? Not sure how you can feel freedom if you believe an almighty power looks over every moment of your entire life from birth to death, not sure how you can feel free if you believe your entire life works towards a judgement day to decide your ultimate fate, not sure how you can be free if you live your life according to a misogynistic, homophobic, violent, rape accepting text written 2000 year ago.

Let's just get one thing clear-myself personally speaking now,i do not go to church,i do not read a bible,i do not associate with any religious groups.....i look beyond religion,beyond man made attempts to control by faith and so forth,almost atheist in many ways only i happen to believe in creation and a creator..

 

[Silk]

Doesn't add up, god is supposedly omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing and almighty. He is also a vengeful god. If people have free wil then actually he does not have much control at all otherwise gays, atheists and sinners would be wiped out by now. So what is it? Does he have control ornot cause if he does then he is doing a really shit job.

God grants us free will. But he wants us to choose to do good rather than evil. Or something.

 

[Ravids]

Hitler,for example had free will,a lesson was learned to some degree by his actions,lessons will be lost and have to be re learned again,why does God have to have created a perfect world where every thing is perfect,how would you see perfection without the opposite of perfection..

The Paradox is the world is perfect..

I still don't get why you spend your life believing in a God which there is absolutely no evidence for. Also, why pick one God over all the rest? Why not Zues, Thor, Allah?

 

[Silk]

I still don't get why you spend your life believing in a God which there is absolutely no evidence for. Also, why pick one God over all the rest? Why not Zues, Thor, Allah?

There is only one God. And there is plenty of evidence. It's all about how you interpret it.

 

[Wilko]

Hitler,for example had free will,a lesson was learned to some degree by his actions,lessons will be lost and have to be re learned again,why does God have to have created a perfect world where every thing is perfect,how would you see perfection without the opposite of perfection..

The Paradox is the world is perfect..

God made Hitler to teach others? He really is doing a shit job. So, god made a perfect world then ****ed it up a bit, then allowed people free will and has lost a bit of control. Sounds a bit like a supply teacher. Im enjoying the debate but the desperate attmpt to clutch at any straw from the believers is admirable but also a little sad.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

So a being capable of conjuring up the universe out of nothing (God) can just exist without a creator of it's own?
If God exists, and can exist in a state of no physics, no time, no space, no matter, why would he have arms and legs, assuming the Bible is truthful when it says God made man in his own image?

Perhaps,the answer to everything lays in the biggest question of all-what is beyond the universe? If the answer came back that it never ends and is without limitation,would mankind accept this answer?

 

[Ravids]

There is only one God. And there is plenty of evidence. It's all about how you interpret it.

So muslims, budists, sikhs are all wrong then, but you are right?

Religion, especially in the western world will be non existent in 100 years. Open your eyes to the truth, and close them to this non existent hope.

 

[Wilko]

Let's just get one thing clear-myself personally speaking now,i do not go to church,i do not read a bible,i do not associate with any religious groups.....i look beyond religion,beyond man made attempts to control by faith and so forth,almost atheist in many ways only i happen to believe in creation and a creator..

True, there is a big difference between believing in god and religion. I only believe in one less god than you so we are pretty much the same