Malaysian airline crash

[Czechmate]

How do you feel about Putin's involvement in this incident

Putin should do a lot more , i am not so sure he has so much control over the rebels as people think , these are Ukrainians who have had hard lives , who drink a lot and are more than likely before this happened having rifles and guns in their houses , family lives are not the norm for most Ukrainian men and go from woman to woman and drink . Putin might be supplying arms to these people but wasn't it also the US's idea to do the same to Ukrainian soldiers ?

To me the EU should be strong , get the President of Ukraine and Putin together , a ceasefire and work together to either unite the country or a split . Also it doesn't matter what Ukraine thinks they need Russia , they owe money to them for gas and their gas will run out in December then the normal civilians will suffer , so it needs to be sorted now !!! both parties , not the yanks though they should keep their noses out they are only interested in themselves .

 

[dingodan]

Yes that's the one , he speak's without thinking !

Yes that was the feeling I got. Some of what he has been saying has been very aggressive and some of it very cynical spinning of the situation.

If you couple that with the fact that he has an obvious existing axe to grind with Russia, and Ukraine losing no citizens in the MH17 tragedy, I find it a bit uncomfortable how he talks with such outrage and demands action, and yet other world leaders who have lost citizens of their countries are able to remain dignified and measured, despite their justifiable anger. It makes it seem like he is very cynically taking advantage of the situation. He doesn't seem a very professional leader in general tbh, but that is what you get when you install someone after a coup.

 

[dingodan]

Freely elected, trying to save Eastern Ukraine from Russian invaders? Tell us the real story

He was appointed by Parliament which is slightly different.

 

[martyn20]

Putin should do a lot more , i am not so sure he has so much control over the rebels as people think , these are Ukrainians who have had hard lives , who drink a lot and are more than likely before this happened having rifles and guns in their houses , family lives are not the norm for most Ukrainian men and go from woman to woman and drink . Putin might be supplying arms to these people but wasn't it also the US's idea to do the same to Ukrainian soldiers ?

To me the EU should be strong , get the President of Ukraine and Putin together , a ceasefire and work together to either unite the country or a split . Also it doesn't matter what Ukraine thinks they need Russia , they owe money to them for gas and their gas will run out in December then the normal civilians will suffer , so it needs to be sorted now !!! both parties , not the yanks though they should keep their noses out they are only interested in themselves .

You can see why supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend their own soil and Russia supplying weapons to rebels in another country is not the same right?

 

[martyn20]

He was appointed by Parliament which is slightly different.

Are you talking President or PM now?

 

[dingodan]

Are you talking President or PM now?

Ah sorry for the confusion. Yes the PM, but I guess you meant the Pres.

 

[dingodan]

I posted this article on another thread.

It's good for another perspective, John Pilger is a fantastic journalist.

In Ukraine, the US is dragging us towards war with Russia.

Washington's role in Ukraine, and its backing for the regime's neo-Nazis, has huge implications for the rest of the world.

By John Pilger

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-john-pilger

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

perhaps they are normal human beings after all ?

Nope, they're not.

 

[Czechmate]

How do you feel about Putin's involvement in this incident

Martyn , I am not on anyone's side , I think Putin could do a lot more as well as the Ukrainian government . The US needs to keep it's nose out of it . I just don't like the UK news reports , papers and every UK media section criticising one side and not the other without facts and not showing the dead bodies strewn across the pavements in Donetsk of normal Ukraine civilians , but show and tell in detail whether true or just hearsay everything against Russia and the Pro Russian activists . So that is my main gripe !

 

[dingodan]

Nope, they're not.

You want to suggest that these Russians are "not normal human beings", and yet the view that a particular group of people are "not normal human beings" is exactly the kind of ugly nasty thinking that you seem to be most afraid of.

As was once famously said, "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster."

 

[beorhthelm]

Putin should do a lot more , i am not so sure he has so much control over the rebels as people think

apart from the arms you note, the suspicious appearance of un-indentifable troops, the massing of Russian divisions on the border, the Russian passports to anyone who asked, and general public backing of the ethnic Russians, i'm sure he doesn't have much control or influence.

 

[Czechmate]

You can see why supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend their own soil and Russia supplying weapons to rebels in another country is not the same right?

Bit like what the US is doing in most countries .

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You want to suggest that these Russians are "not normal human beings", and yet the view that a particular group of people are "not normal human beings" is exactly the kind of ugly nasty thinking that you seem to be most afraid of.

As was once famously said, "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster."

I cannot be arsed to discuss too deeply but for clarity I think Russia is run by backward arrogant people and has a lot of backward arrogant citizens. Where they involved? I think most likely. Could they do a lot more? Most certainly. Not normal? No, they're not.

 

[Czechmate]

apart from the arms you note, the suspicious appearance of un-indentifable troops, the massing of Russian divisions on the border, the Russian passports to anyone who asked, and general public backing of the ethnic Russians, i'm sure he doesn't have much control or influence.

bit like the coup in Kiev then which started all this including build up of UN forces on the Polish border.

 

[dingodan]

apart from the arms you note, the suspicious appearance of un-indentifable troops, the massing of Russian divisions on the border, the Russian passports to anyone who asked, and general public backing of the ethnic Russians, i'm sure he doesn't have much control or influence.

Russian divisions are not massing on the border, where did you get that from?

Do you believe the EU/U.S. has had any hand in the uprising and coup in Ukraine?

 

[martyn20]

Bit like what the US is doing in most countries .

Which countries are the US currently supplying arms to who are using them to invade and conquer other countries? We are not talking supplying arms when we were friends decades ago I mean supplying arms now that are currently being used offensively across borders

 

[martyn20]

Russian divisions are not massing on the border, where did you get that from?

Do you believe the EU/U.S. has had any hand in the uprising and coup in Ukraine?

DOD: Russian troops mass near Ukraine border
The United States is not planning to give weapons or “lethal” assistance to Ukraine following Thursday’s downing of an airliner in its conflict zone, nor does it plan any major U.S. military response to the crisis, the Pentagon said Friday.

Press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby repeated U.S. calls for a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine but said the “focus” of American assistance to Kiev will remain on non-lethal supplies and equipment, even though he acknowledged Ukraine has asked for both lethal and non-lethal help.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/russian-troops-ukraine-border-109112.html#ixzz387BzXIKc

 

[martyn20]

Russian divisions are not massing on the border, where did you get that from?

Do you believe the EU/U.S. has had any hand in the uprising and coup in Ukraine?

This ones from February
http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightl...-arrive-at-ukraine-russia-border-172167747860

5 days ago
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/16/russian-forces-return-ukraine-border/

 

[dingodan]

Which countries are the US currently supplying arms to who are using them to invade and conquer other countries? We are not talking supplying arms when we were friends decades ago I mean supplying arms now that are currently being used offensively across borders

A pro-Russian activist with a shell casing and a US-made meal pack that fell from a Ukrainian army APC in an attack on a roadblock on 3 May in Andreevka, Ukraine. Photograph: Scott Olson/Getty

When we gave weapons to the Syrian rebels , not only are those weapons being used across borders in Iraq & Afghanistan, those U.S. made weapons are being used to kill U.S. and British troops.

I don't accept your assertion that the provision of weapons by proxy is only immoral if those weapons are used across boarders.

 

[dingodan]

This ones from February
http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightl...-arrive-at-ukraine-russia-border-172167747860

5 days ago
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/16/russian-forces-return-ukraine-border/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/19/putin-orders-russian-troop-withdrawal-ukrainian-border

Depends who you read. He also urged ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to abandon the referendum which was causing so much controversy.

There are two sides to this story.