[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[pastafarian]

When those c***s are defeated, they should be subject to the same rules as Germany post-war.

No military for at least 50 years. No nothing. Disbanded of nuclear and everything,

The most important thing to reform and set straight after Putin is defeated is their media and freedom of speech. Putin wouldn’t have gotten away most of his shit if the Russian population were better informed.

Restore freedoms, human rights, and an honest media and you have a country far less willing to wage war.

How though would you enforce this? If Russia are kicked out of Ukraine then all you have is Putin still in power in Russia.
International trade sanctions cant make him disband his miltary or make him reform his media or free speech.
At the end of the Ukraine incursion Russia will not have been invaded occupied and defeated and made to unconditionally surrender.
He will just carry on being Putin

 

[The Clamp]

How though would you enforce this? If Russia are kicked out of Ukraine then all you have is Putin still in power in Russia.
International trade sanctions cant make him disband his miltary or make him reform his media or free speech.
At the end of the Ukraine incursion Russia will not have been invaded occupied and defeated and made to unconditionally surrender.
He will just carry on being Putin

You’re right. I was talking more ideals. He won’t change after he pulls out. He’ll have a crack somewhere else soon enough. If he’s not murdered by his own for ****ing it up.

 

[sparkie]

You’re right. I was talking more ideals. He won’t change after he pulls out. He’ll have a crack somewhere else soon enough. If he’s not murdered by his own for ****ing it up.

I suspect that reasonably soon there will just be an announcement that he died in his sleep. We'll have to speculate about any injection.

 

[CheeseRolls]

You’re right. I was talking more ideals. He won’t change after he pulls out. He’ll have a crack somewhere else soon enough. If he’s not murdered by his own for ****ing it up.

What with? This will be like Mike Tyson post Buster Douglas. There is no aura of invincibility and all the back slappers and hangers on will disappear from his side. Whilst Putin is in charge sanctions will remain. It might not hit him financially, but the technology required to modernise the military will be denied to him.

 

[Triggaaar]

Don't be so naive.

You think if Russia is stripped of all its military that it won't think about letting China build military bases to protect its borders?

I'm not being naive, you've just completely changed what you suggested. You said "And leave them open to a military attack by China?". Open to military attack is very different to asking another country to build bases on your land.

 

[Triggaaar]

The most important thing to reform and set straight after Putin is defeated is their media and freedom of speech. Putin wouldn’t have gotten away most of his shit if the Russian population were better informed.

Restore freedoms, human rights, and an honest media and you have a country far less willing to wage war.

Which means them having a democracy.

 

[essbee1]

Russia as a country has to learn that bully-boy, anti-west, Communist ideals simply don't work any more.
The sooner that they align themselves with countries not obsessed by killing people on a whim, stupid military
hardware displays, racist policies, ridiculous army marches, dick-heads at the top, history founded on pretending they're hard
and the past, the f*****g better.

 

[Triggaaar]

Russia as a country has to learn that bully-boy, anti-west, Communist ideals simply don't work any more.
The sooner that they align themselves with countries not obsessed by killing people on a whim, stupid military
hardware displays, racist policies, ridiculous army marches, dick-heads at the top, history founded on pretending they're hard
and the past, the f*****g better.

Yes, but don't hold your breath.

 

[beorhthelm]

good maps illustrating the change of battlefield past few days.

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1569173596727300096

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

There isn’t even a vague pretence at communism any more.

Thought the national self esteem is held up by pride in a military strength which no longer exists. They venerate WW2 and act like they are a genuine cold war power in the cold war era.

There could be a bright future for Russia. But they have to open up and modernise. Them constantly living in the past is holding them back and is dangerous for the rest of the world.

 

[Eric the meek]

Six months ago, the talk was all about regime change in Kyiv.

Now it's all about regime change in Moscow.

 

[The Clamp]

What with? This will be like Mike Tyson post Buster Douglas. There is no aura of invincibility and all the back slappers and hangers on will disappear from his side. Whilst Putin is in charge sanctions will remain. It might not hit him financially, but the technology required to modernise the military will be denied to him.

You’re also right. I’m just typing thoughts I suppose. I would imagine whatever way the chips fall, Putin has dragged Russia into the pit and it’s a shame because Russia is home to some brilliant people.

I have never been but I have met a few Russians on my travels. I met a guy who worked in a Siberian power plant and he had saved for four years and learnt English to go on the only two week holiday he reckons he will ever have in his life. That’s a man who’s character has been carved out of granite and he’ll probably have to spend his entire life never leaving Russia again. Unless he was sent to fight in Ukraine which is a real possibility.

Anyway, the upshot is I don’t know what will become of Russia. I fear it will now be even more locked down and isolated. Shame for it’s normal citizens.

 

[essbee1]

Who was it who said "A country gets the government is deserves"?

de Maistre.

 

[Triggaaar]

You’re also right. I’m just typing thoughts I suppose. I would imagine whatever way the chips fall, Putin has dragged Russia into the pit and it’s a shame because Russia is home to some brilliant people.

I have never been but I have met a few Russians on my travels. I met a guy who worked in a Siberian power plant and he had saved for four years and learnt English to go on the only two week holiday he reckons he will ever have in his life. That’s a man who’s character has been carved out of granite and he’ll probably have to spend his entire life never leaving Russia again. Unless he was sent to fight in Ukraine which is a real possibility.

Anyway, the upshot is I don’t know what will become of Russia. I fear it will now be even more locked down and isolated. Shame for it’s normal citizens.

While I agree with your general point, it's fair to say I'm not feeling much sympathy for ordinary Russians, given what's happened to ordinary Ukrainians.

 

[Triggaaar]

Who was it who said "A country gets the government is deserves"?

de Maistre.

He was wrong.

 

[Eric the meek]

You’re also right. I’m just typing thoughts I suppose. I would imagine whatever way the chips fall, Putin has dragged Russia into the pit and it’s a shame because Russia is home to some brilliant people.

I have never been but I have met a few Russians on my travels. I met a guy who worked in a Siberian power plant and he had saved for four years and learnt English to go on the only two week holiday he reckons he will ever have in his life. That’s a man who’s character has been carved out of granite and he’ll probably have to spend his entire life never leaving Russia again. Unless he was sent to fight in Ukraine which is a real possibility.

Anyway, the upshot is I don’t know what will become of Russia. I fear it will now be even more locked down and isolated. Shame for it’s normal citizens.

Imagine a country, a nuclear super power, ruled by criminals, in which the people have lived from birth, through childhood, parenthood, working life, retirement and death without ever experiencing freedom or democracy, and who have been fed a diet of false reality on TV, radio and press their whole lives?

How do you possibly turn that around?

 

[essbee1]

I always remember a story about when US astronauts first met up in space with Russian cosmonauts.
The US had all this shiny computer technology, state-of-the-art stuff and Russia had, in the US's words, nothing
much more sophisticated than an abacus. I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, but maybe Russia could
be such a better country if it just unshackled itself from its own ridiculous nature.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Imagine a country, a nuclear super power, ruled by criminals, in which the people have lived from birth, through childhood, parenthood, working life, retirement and death without ever experiencing freedom or democracy, and who have been fed a diet of false reality on TV, radio and press their whole lives?

How do you possibly turn that around?

It's tough, but possible. Japan after WW2 the most successful example, and yes I know the circumstances were different and horrific and yes I know i'm rousing the people who want to yarn on about ww2 all day, but the proof of concept exists. A brainwashed population can be de-brainwashed and can go onto contribute to the international community in a surprisingly short space of time.

Denazification of Germany also a success

The country has got to want to change though.

 

[happypig]

I always remember a story about when US astronauts first met up in space with Russian cosmonauts.
The US had all this shiny computer technology, state-of-the-art stuff and Russia had, in the US's words, nothing
much more sophisticated than an abacus. I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, but maybe Russia could
be such a better country if it just unshackled itself from its own ridiculous nature.

The Russians, in Sergei Korolev, had a brilliant rocket designer (probably better than anyone the Americans had) but he was totally hamstrung by having to get military and political approval for everything; sometmes it took weeks just to get authority to test a rocket. NASA, on the other hand, were given a big budget and trusted to spend it.
Had it not been for this there is no doubt in my mind that the russians would have put men on the moon sooner.

 

[sparkie]

I hope when the Russians are finally kicked out of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Crimea that Ukraine will immediately be offered NATO membership to consolidate their territory and so they won't have to go through the Russian terror all over again.