[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eeyore]

Hopefully, not forgetting that NATO and Russia already share borders in the Baltics,.... no big escalations in that region. Plus of course Turkey which virtually borders Russia through the Black Sea and Georgia.... again, no issues there.... barring the Crimea 'takeover' and a few Russia inspired territorial skirmishes.

Ukraine is, and always has been, the line in the sand. Russia won't allow NATO membership, and NATO won't either. The Ukrainian neutrality thing is the easiest part of negotiations. Zelensky has muted it.

At some stage, as I said, the US and Russia will need to sit down. It looks like Russia alluded to it today.

 

[Carlos BC]

Russia 'to reduce activity around Kyiv and Chernihiv'
Russia's deputy defence minister Alexander Fomin says Russia will "radically reduce" military activity outside Kyiv and Chernihiv - that's according to the news agency Tass.

So that means the b ast ard Russians will be stepping up their activity around Kyiv then.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Russia 'to reduce activity around Kyiv and Chernihiv'
Russia's deputy defence minister Alexander Fomin says Russia will "radically reduce" military activity outside Kyiv and Chernihiv - that's according to the news agency Tass.

So that means the b ast ard Russians will be stepping up their activity around Kyiv then.

Might be something to do with this;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60506682

‘Ukrainians fight back around Kyiv’

 

[1066familyman]

It disagree about it fitting with his previous behaviour. Yes he is a self-serving shit, but to try and prolong a war where thousands of innocent civilians are dying is on a very different level. That's not to say he's not doing it, I have no idea, but it's certainly not comparable.

If it were true (we can only hope not), how exactly would one go about that? Supply some weapons, but not too many; Impose some sanctions, but not too many. AFAIK there's been nothing to suggest we're doing anything weird like that. The bit we appear to have been worst at is making it easy for refugees to come over, and that's not going to prolong the war.

There was a caller to Any Answers on Radio 4 at the weekend that claimed that current sanctions on Russian Banks are meaningless at the moment. He said that only a handful among 'hundreds' of Russian banks had been sanctioned so far in regards to using Swift. He was able to refund money very easily to a Russian agent he'd stopped dealing with that had credit on his account (he owns an engineering business). He claims there's hundreds of Russian banks still on Swift and only seven that have been sanctioned so far. This link appears to back up his claim https://www.reuters.com/business/fi...sian-banks-swift-official-journal-2022-03-02/
That's an EU thing though. Apparently the U.K and U.S asked for more sanctions regarding Swift. Things might also have moved on since then.

You get all sorts of callers on there, but this caller sounded pretty well informed on a few matters, particularly around the U.K's Armed Forces. You can listen from 15.15 in if you're interested. He's only on for a few minutes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0015tvl

 

[Triggaaar]

Ukraine is, and always has been, the line in the sand. Russia won't allow NATO membership

That's not a fact, that's just the way things currently are. If Ukraine had applied to join in 2004 along with the other eastern European countries, I'm not sure Russia could have stopped it. At some point when there's peace, Ukraine could hypothetically join and then an announcement be made, making it too late for Russia to do anything. Or maybe Russia will have a more peaceful leader in the future, allowing Ukraine to join.

Whether or not NATO would ever accept that, I don't know.

The Ukrainian neutrality thing is the easiest part of negotiations.

It's also easy because it can easily be undone. Neutral one day, not neutral the next. The main problem with neutrality is any contested regions. How can Ukraine be neutral regarding Russia while Russia occupies part of Ukraine?

At some stage, as I said, the US and Russia will need to sit down. It looks like Russia alluded to it today.

What has Russia said about that today?

 

[rippleman]

The Concert for Ukraine is on the tellybox tonight.

Somewhat ironic that the lead tv sponsor for this event is.....M&S. Yup, that would be the same M&S that is continuing to trade through its 48 Russian branches.

“This isn’t just any food, it’s blood and destruction food.”

Puts sportswashing into perspective eh?

 

[Eric the meek]

Ukraine is, and always has been, the line in the sand. Russia won't allow NATO membership, and NATO won't either. The Ukrainian neutrality thing is the easiest part of negotiations. Zelensky has muted it.

At some stage, as I said, the US and Russia will need to sit down. It looks like Russia alluded to it today.[/QUOTE]

Why do you say the US and Russia will need to sit down? In an earlier post, you said that it isn't for the west to decide the condition for peace!

What would you want them to talk about if you won't let them discuss conditions for peace?

Like [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION], I can't find where the Russians alluded to sitting down with the US today. Where did you see it?

 

[LamieRobertson]

The Concert for Ukraine is on the tellybox tonight.

Somewhat ironic that the lead tv sponsor for this event is.....M&S. Yup, that would be the same M&S that is continuing to trade through its 48 Russian branches.

“This isn’t just any food, it’s blood and destruction food.”

Puts sportswashing into perspective eh?

I’m not taking sides on your MS argument..but purely for balance refer to below

M&S’ 48 franchise stores remain open in Russia

// The retailer is unable to close the stores, which are run by franchisee FiBA, however M&S has stopped supplying them with product

Marks and Spencer still has 48 stores open in Russia, with the retailer unable to close the shops due to its franchise agreement.

The shops are operated by a Turkish company FiBA, which has the right to use the M&S name and sell its products, although M&S has stopped supplying the company producs as a response to the ongoing war.

M&S is unable to force the store closures without legal consequences.

 

[Bry Nylon]

There is a definite pattern forming here. We always thought that the Russians were masters of spying, deception and asymmetric warfare and blunt force heavy warfare with tanks and armoured units. it seems the reality is that they have never come across a credible enemy yet until they made the mistake of invading Ukraine. It's all very well when quashing poorly organised and supplied uprisings in satellite nations but not so good in the real world. There seems a genuine complacency among the Russian hierarchy that their methods and men were superior but they seem to have lost almost every little harmonic of the war in the last month.

Their logistics have been crap, calibre of their troops and equipment has been poor, morale poor and tactics awful compared to Ukraine . They have lost the propaganda war by trying to stick with " Special Military Operation when the World clearly sees it as a war. The the two Presidents have polarised in to one who is a leader and rallying point for the nation and one who seems completely out of touch with reality and who sounds increasingly more like the Nutter in the Pub who everyone avoids.

Ukraine is a very West leaning tech savvy nation and this has aided them in the clever use of propaganda, recovery and re-use of Russian tanks and vehicles and the use of fast moving small independent units equipped with drones for reconnaissance and targeting purposes.. Lots of the locals are using expertise in many fields to pull together and chip away at the Russians old aurora of invincibility. Ukraine has something worth fighting for unlike Russia.

As I said some time ago, by their failure to achieve a quick victory they have effectively lost the war. There is no way they can retain any kudos from a massive financial and military defeat, this Russian army was the one that was supposedly re-equipped and modernised but has been shown up mostly as being ineffective. their aura has gone and there is now no easy way to re-arm with the sanctions biting. The tales of Russian casualties and deaths is beginning to reach Russia now and this will weaken Putin's hold on power further.

I think we are going to get bogged down in a war of attrition that neither side can actually win but neither side can actually lose. Russia have to be seen to " win " something but they can never hold the land they captured as the Ukrainian people won't let them, Ukraine can not lose all the time they are united and Zelensky is head of state.

Having 100'000 troops living in Field conditions for three months through the winter prior to the invasion in late February was hardly a tactical masterstroke either and would have degraded their condition and morale.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

I’m not taking sides on your MS argument..but purely for balance refer to below

M&S’ 48 franchise stores remain open in Russia

// The retailer is unable to close the stores, which are run by franchisee FiBA, however M&S has stopped supplying them with product

Marks and Spencer still has 48 stores open in Russia, with the retailer unable to close the shops due to its franchise agreement.

The shops are operated by a Turkish company FiBA, which has the right to use the M&S name and sell its products, although M&S has stopped supplying the company producs as a response to the ongoing war.

M&S is unable to force the store closures without legal consequences.

Thanks for clearing that up

Sent from my SM-A326B using Tapatalk

 

[beorhthelm]

The Concert for Ukraine is on the tellybox tonight.

Somewhat ironic that the lead tv sponsor for this event is.....M&S. Yup, that would be the same M&S that is continuing to trade through its 48 Russian branches.

“This isn’t just any food, it’s blood and destruction food.”

Puts sportswashing into perspective eh?

perhaps thats M&S way to in part compensate for the franchises in Russia they cant do anything about? too bad many wont see that, should probably save themselves the bother.

 

[Baldseagull]

Sorry, but that’s just daft. I know that evidence less accusation is all the rage these days but that does take it to a new level.

Zelensky was asked about the stance of other countries, he said;
"Everyone has varied interests. There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives. This is definitely in the interests of some countries. For other countries, it would be better if the war ended quickly, because Russia’s market is a big one that their economies are suffering as a result of the war. They would like to see Russia keep certain markets. Other, truly wealthy countries, recognize Nazism in Russia and definitely want Ukraine to be victorious. And there are still other countries, smaller countries, which support us completely, but they are more liberal states and concerned with humanitarian issues. They want the war to end quickly at any cost, because they think people come first. And then there is the category of countries wanting the war to end quickly in any way possible because they can be considered as “the offices of the Russian Federation in Europe.”

He was then asked what category Britain was in.

Zelensky said “Britain wants Ukraine to win and Russia to lose, but I’m not ready to say whether Britain wants the war to drag on or not.”

Clearly Zelensky believes different countries act differently according to their own political needs, some regardless of the cost in lives or status of Ukraine. Boris has demonstrated that his personal ambitions and desires are more important than what is best for the country in various situations, so I would not be surprised if he has entirely selfish motives, you can disagree if you like but it is my opinion, not an accusation.
The only accusation I have made is that some European leaders don't trust him, and there is evidence for that.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Having 100'000 troops living in Field conditions for three months through the winter prior to the invasion in late February was hardly a tactical masterstroke either and would have degraded their condition and morale.

And then some of them did this :

[Tweet]1508490721262772225[/Tweet]

Blunder after blunder.

 

[essbee1]

And then some of them did this :

[Tweet]1508490721262772225[/Tweet]

Blunder after blunder.

For the morons that did this, what is the implication? Will they all die at some point or
get mild illness or long-term illnesses?

 

[Carlos BC]

For the morons that did this, what is the implication? Will they all die at some point or
get mild illness or long-term illnesses?

They may grow extra feet or horns

 

[birthofanorange]

For the morons that did this, what is the implication? Will they all die at some point or
get mild illness or long-term illnesses?

It all depends on for how long they were exposed, how much they absorbed and how much they ingested. Lots of factors to consider, but I very much doubt they'll come through it unscathed.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Zelensky was asked about the stance of other countries, he said;
"Everyone has varied interests. There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives. This is definitely in the interests of some countries. For other countries, it would be better if the war ended quickly, because Russia’s market is a big one that their economies are suffering as a result of the war. They would like to see Russia keep certain markets. Other, truly wealthy countries, recognize Nazism in Russia and definitely want Ukraine to be victorious. And there are still other countries, smaller countries, which support us completely, but they are more liberal states and concerned with humanitarian issues. They want the war to end quickly at any cost, because they think people come first. And then there is the category of countries wanting the war to end quickly in any way possible because they can be considered as “the offices of the Russian Federation in Europe.”

He was then asked what category Britain was in.

Zelensky said “Britain wants Ukraine to win and Russia to lose, but I’m not ready to say whether Britain wants the war to drag on or not.”

Clearly Zelensky believes different countries act differently according to their own political needs, some regardless of the cost in lives or status of Ukraine. Boris has demonstrated that his personal ambitions and desires are more important than what is best for the country in various situations, so I would not be surprised if he has entirely selfish motives, you can disagree if you like but it is my opinion, not an accusation.
The only accusation I have made is that some European leaders don't trust him, and there is evidence for that.

Ok, thank you. My take on that quote is that Zelensky was giving direct examples of motives of countries that wish either for a quick end to war (a cynical retention of markets or short sighted humanitarian reasons) or an opportunity to end Russian power once and for all. Nowhere does he reference or even hint at leaders who might be more worried about getting a penalty charge notice (that is the point I was responding to) ! I do find it preposterous but as you say we all have different opinions.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

For the morons that did this, what is the implication? Will they all die at some point or
get mild illness or long-term illnesses?

There was a spate of thyroid problems all over Europe when Chernobyl first exploded. My French friend was told by her doctor it was the cause of her illness.

 

[Eric the meek]

There is a difference between what Russia says and does, Blinken says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199 15:49

He also said the US was focused on the latter. Seems a sensible course of action to me. Focus on what Russia does, not what it says.

Have you ever encountered a diplomat talking about another country in those terms?

 

[Bry Nylon]

Ukrainian troops have found Dress Uniforms in captured and destroyed Russian military vehicles outside Kiyv, seemingly in preparation for their victory parade into the capital.

The Russian military equivalent of the classic “Please stay of the pitch at the final whistle so Sam and the lads can do a lap of honour.”

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?37-quot-Please-stay-off-the-pitch-at-the-final-whistle