[Albion] Will defence be the key next season?

[Guinness Boy]

Just looking at some stats for last season and this. Last season we conceded 62 goals. This season, so far, it’s 58. So you’d hope an on beach Spuds won’t take us over last season (I can hear you thinking “you’ve done it now”).

So, at first glance, FH has bettered RDZ on another stat. However, last season a lot of teams conceded a lot of goals. West Ham finished 2 places above us and conceded 74. Our defensive record was 10th best and Villa and Spurs in fourth and fifth conceded just one goal less with 61.

This season our defensive record is 14th best and Man Utd have actually conceded fewer than us. The teams in fourth and fifth have conceded 43 and 49 respectively.

Is this a sign of defensive, hit on the break, football like Forest (and Palace in the Cup Final) have played slowly working out possession football? Is it just the utter toothlessness of the bottom three? A mix of both?

Is being less exposed on the break our pre season homework or does it bring sufficient rewards attacking wise to stick how we are?

 

[dazzer6666]

Mostly skewed by shipping 7 at Forest

 

[Seagull Stew]

Mostly skewed by shipping 7 at Forest

And don't forget the suicidal high line against Cole Palmer at his peak for the season.

 

[Weststander]

Hurzeler just doesn’t seem to obsess over defence. High risk, we’ll outscore you, happy for everyone pushed up in a high line. Klopp/Slot very similar. When in possession.

Personally, I’m not keen with Albion players, a raft of coaches such as Moyes, Emery, Silva and Glasner who feel all their Xmas’s have come at once. I wish we were more circumspect. For example when Palarse visited Cantor/Aspinall commented on repeat that it could be any score to them first half. So naive.

If FH won’t budge, I feel we need DM/defenders with searing pace & great defensive games to reduce the cascade of GA.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Mostly skewed by shipping 7 at Forest

It’s not like that doesn’t count though is it? You could say the same sort of thing about Luton or Everton for RDZ.

Many sides this season have a GA total that’s more than seven in difference.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Mostly skewed by shipping 7 at Forest

My thoughts exactly. Remove this outlier and our defence is up there with the 4th and 5th places teams.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It’s not like that doesn’t count though is it? You could say the same sort of thing about Luton or Everton for RDZ.

Many sides this season have a GA total that’s more than seven in difference.

I feel the difference with RDZ is those defeats were very much part of his way of playing. The Forest 7-0 was a complete brain-fart not-to-be-repeated way of playing. It's an outlier in a number of ways.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

My thoughts exactly. Remove this outlier and our defence is up there with the 4th and 5th places teams.

I'd be interested in whether the same is true for other teams though, it's not that unusual for an otherwise good side to have a big loss once a season. Just need a few key injuries or something like that and to come up against the wrong side.

Admittedly losing by 7 is unusual, but I'd guess most teams in the league will have conceded 5 in a game at some point in the season.

 

[Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ]

Forest 7-0 was a complete brain-fart not-to-be-repeated

you’d hope an on beach Spuds won’t take us over last season

Thanks for this guys, we all know what will happen on Sunday now

 

[Machiavelli]

Hurzeler just doesn’t seem to obsess over defence. High risk, we’ll outscore you, happy for everyone pushed up in a high line. Klopp/Slot very similar. When in possession.

Personally, I’m not keen with Albion players, a raft of coaches such as Moyes, Emery, Silva and Glasner who feel all their Xmas’s have come at once. I wish we were more circumspect. For example when Palarse visited Cantor/Aspinall commented on repeat that it could be any score to them first half. So naive.

If FH won’t budge, I feel we need DM/defenders with searing pace & great defensive games to reduce the cascade of GA.

Agree with your assessment of managerial styles, but also with @Guinness Boy on Forest this season and if I can mention it, Palace in the Cup Final. That's a distinctive style that they've improved on, and it does seem an increasingly effective counter to Pep possession ball.
I think with FH we will have to accept that we won't replicate the defensive solidity of a Nuno low block. We take more risks. This leads to thrilling games of football like last night. I strongly suspect that that's what Tony wants and wouldn't want to go to Nuno ball. Emery and Glasner for me are more adaptive.
I've said this countless times, but our defensive solidity will improve when we can play more consistent line-ups, especially GK + 2CBs, but also FBs and CMs. The front four can rotate more, and none of these should really expect to play more than an hour a game. We have been more defensively secure when we've had that consistency in selection this season.

 

[Simster]

Defence is key to next season, but so is keeping Mitoma and Baleba for one more season each. Maybe one of them will go, and if that is Baleba then I think it'll be more of the same - good but not "live in the memory" good like it was 2 seasons ago. I think too much is said about Estupian's drop off in form, as I think we desperately miss Veltman more than anyone else on the pitch. We desperately need cover there. Webster and JPvH look solid but with Dunk in the twilight of his time here, we may need an additional body to cover centre back, although maybe the club have their eye on a U21 player internally for that job.

If we can keep both Baleba and Mitoma, genuinely we could be next season's Newcastle/Aston Villa. Our squad depth is just so strong these days and we were almost there this season as it is - dropping silly points to the relegation sides (and the Wolves 2-2) are the only thing that has kept us out of the Champions League conversation.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

How many teams, when a goal up against the champions in stoppage time, would have pressed high, flooded men forward and played from the back?

In some ways the lack of game management at the end of the game was alarming, (though I was enjoying it so much that I didn't really care). But in other ways it's a symptom of a positive mindset.

That positive mindset is why Hinsh was flying into the box from central midfield for his winner. It's why Gruda felt empowered to try a very difficult ball over the defence for Ayari.

It also explains why Igor went walkies at Leicester and Weiffer went for the brain dead pass at home to Wolves and Verbruggen has been caught out passing into midfield several times

We can't celebrate it when it works without recognising that when it doesn't, all we're seeing is two sides of the same coin.

We are a risk taking side and this has got us plenty of goals and wins. But it's given us some bad days as well.

Every single day of the week I would take that over the procession of low scoring affairs I remember under Potter. Get ready for another season full of goals, but getting regularly shredded on the counter

 

[Guinness Boy]

My thoughts exactly. Remove this outlier and our defence is up there with the 4th and 5th places teams.

It absolutely isn’t. Take seven off and we’re still worse than every team above us.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Agree with your assessment of managerial styles, but also with @Guinness Boy on Forest this season and if I can mention it, Palace in the Cup Final. That's a distinctive style that they've improved on, and it does seem an increasingly effective counter to Pep possession ball.
I think with FH we will have to accept that we won't replicate the defensive solidity of a Nuno low block. We take more risks. This leads to thrilling games of football like last night. I strongly suspect that that's what Tony wants and wouldn't want to go to Nuno ball. Emery and Glasner for me are more adaptive.
I've said this countless times, but our defensive solidity will improve when we can play more consistent line-ups, especially GK + 2CBs, but also FBs and CMs. The front four can rotate more, and none of these should really expect to play more than an hour a game. We have been more defensively secure when we've had that consistency in selection this season.

Thanks. That’s what I was getting at. Do the stats show the tide turning on football styles or has this just been a poor division attacking wise?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

It absolutely isn’t. Take seven off and we’re still worse than every team above us.

View attachment 202253

Ah, but if we take 7 off our total and add 15 onto Liverpool's, you'll see we have a better defence than the champions.

 

[JBizzle]

So far this season, our defensive partnerships have been:

Dunk & JP
JP & Igor
JP & Webster
Webster & Igor
Baleba & Dunk
JP & Cashin

So I suspect our biggest issue is consistently having a settled partnership, and that's not including the madness at full back

 

[Weststander]

So far this season, our defensive partnerships have been:

Dunk & JP
JP & Igor
JP & Webster
Webster & Igor
Baleba & Dunk
JP & Cashin

So I suspect our biggest issue is consistently having a settled partnership, and that's not including the madness at full back

Plus everyone camped in the opposition half, against teams set out to lap that up then rob a win on the counter.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

One of the keys to our defense this season has been the wide midfielders supporting the full back. Minteh has often been excellent at that, Adingra less so. When thinking about our full backs we should bear this in mind. Maybe plan for the wide men to run themselves ragged and be replaced after an hour.

 

[Flounce]

Is it too simplistic to suggest we set up our tactics depending on the opposition? Don’t go gungho against low block teams with pace on the counter attack (Brentford, Forest, Palace) but go toe to toe with footballing teams. Mix it up

We do need to replace Veltman and Dunk as shoo ins and hope that Ferdi gets over his sore toe in defence

 

[Weststander]

One of the keys to our defense this season has been the wide midfielders supporting the full back. Minteh has often been excellent at that, Adingra less so. When thinking about our full backs we should bear this in mind. Maybe plan for the wide men to run themselves ragged and be replaced after an hour.

Estupinan 2 seasons in a row gets little support. When he’s exposed positionally (a lot), it’s a free run in on goal as Bradley did several times first half. Our left side is poor.