[Other Sport] Saracens docked 35 points and fined £5.3m

[Pavilionaire]

If Saracens' success is based on youth development / academy, then surely that makes it even MORE ludicrous that they've felt the need to overspend salary-wise, to attract players from elsewhere?

Saracens have brought in a few top players but not many on long-contracts. Vincent Koch, Mike Rhodes, Liam Williams, Sean Maitland is pretty much it but part of the problem is of their own making. Sarries will be spending big just to keep the players they themselves nurtured into world class stars like Itoje, Farrell, Billy and Mako, Jamie George, Alex Goode, George Kruis.

The salary cap as it is means if you are successful in player development then you're likely to have to move on some of those players simply to stay within the salary cap limits. So whereas under Premier League rules Chelsea could develop a whole team of top kids like Abraham, Mount, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Reece James who could go on to win the Champions League for Chelsea and World Cup for England and still be able to pay them the going rate the same can't be said for the English Premiership.

Saracens annual turnover is £18 million, so less than what Man Utd make in a week and a half.

If they've done wrong they deserve punishment - I get that. But they've helped English rugby paper over the cracks: only they and Exeter are producing top quality players in numbers, while traditional powerhouses like Leicester, Wasps, Bath and Harlequins are languishing in the doldrums.

 

[blue-shifted]

Saracens have brought in a few top players but not many on long-contracts. Vincent Koch, Mike Rhodes, Liam Williams, Sean Maitland is pretty much it but part of the problem is of their own making. Sarries will be spending big just to keep the players they themselves nurtured into world class stars like Itoje, Farrell, Billy and Mako, Jamie George, Alex Goode, George Kruis.

The salary cap as it is means if you are successful in player development then you're likely to have to move on some of those players simply to stay within the salary cap limits. So whereas under Premier League rules Chelsea could develop a whole team of top kids like Abraham, Mount, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Reece James who could go on to win the Champions League for Chelsea and World Cup for England and still be able to pay them the going rate the same can't be said for the English Premiership.

Saracens annual turnover is £18 million, so less than what Man Utd make in a week and a half.

If they've done wrong they deserve punishment - I get that. But they've helped English rugby paper over the cracks: only they and Exeter are producing top quality players in numbers, while traditional powerhouses like Leicester, Wasps, Bath and Harlequins are languishing in the doldrums.

So we get that you don't agree with the principle of the salary cap. Yes, there are pro's and con's but it's a totally separate argument.

The point is the rule was in place and they breached it. As has been said, it's been common knowledge they've been breaching it for years and they've denied titles and prize money to clubs who have stayed in the rules.

And of course they've developed young players. The Vunipola's etc are going to go there instead of anywhere else because they they know Sarries are the only team ignoring the salary cap.

I'm thinking just like everyone else on this thread, well done to the RFU. Sarries are bang to rights

 

[Eeyore]

Saracens have brought in a few top players but not many on long-contracts. Vincent Koch, Mike Rhodes, Liam Williams, Sean Maitland is pretty much it but part of the problem is of their own making. Sarries will be spending big just to keep the players they themselves nurtured into world class stars like Itoje, Farrell, Billy and Mako, Jamie George, Alex Goode, George Kruis.

The salary cap as it is means if you are successful in player development then you're likely to have to move on some of those players simply to stay within the salary cap limits. So whereas under Premier League rules Chelsea could develop a whole team of top kids like Abraham, Mount, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Reece James who could go on to win the Champions League for Chelsea and World Cup for England and still be able to pay them the going rate the same can't be said for the English Premiership.

Saracens annual turnover is £18 million, so less than what Man Utd make in a week and a half.

If they've done wrong they deserve punishment - I get that. But they've helped English rugby paper over the cracks: only they and Exeter are producing top quality players in numbers, while traditional powerhouses like Leicester, Wasps, Bath and Harlequins are languishing in the doldrums.

Is it not because of Sarries that those teams cannot compete ? Exeter, who haven't broken the salary cap, excepted.

My team, Quins, won the 2012 title without breaking it. Leicester continued to do well until a few years back. I think Northampton reached the senior of the European trophy finals.

Leicester had six players in the World Cup squad. Exeter, I think, four.

I think it's wrong to justify Sarries actions by holding rugby development to ransom. Since Sarries rise everyone else appears to have played by the rules. It was always suspected something wasn't right.

 

[Pavilionaire]

So we get that you don't agree with the principle of the salary cap. Yes, there are pro's and con's but it's a totally separate argument.

The point is the rule was in place and they breached it. As has been said, it's been common knowledge they've been breaching it for years and they've denied titles and prize money to clubs who have stayed in the rules.

And of course they've developed young players. The Vunipola's etc are going to go there instead of anywhere else because they they know Sarries are the only team ignoring the salary cap.

I'm thinking just like everyone else on this thread, well done to the RFU. Sarries are bang to rights

Virtually the whole of the Sarries 1st XV are away on World Cup duty so miss the first 3 rounds of the Premiership plus most will miss Rounds 4 and 5 to recover from the tournament, but they're still expected to field a second side and reserves and still stay within the cap.

The base value of the salary cap is £7 million - with add-ons for international it might be £8 million for Sarries for the whole year. That's supposed to cover a squad of 40-odd players but wouldn't even cover Harry Kane's basic wage at Spurs. That's less than Leinster, and about two-thirds of Toulon, with whom they're trying to compete for European Cups.

I think their appeal will not be wholly successful but I still think they'll be hit with a hefty points penalty that will cost them a European Cup place and a crippling fine. I just hope they survive as a club because after what has been meted out their very existence is now in doubt.

 

[Billy in Bristol]

Last year had put together a second day at Allianz to raise funds for charity - yes I do get paid to run these type of events but have raised £487k now at no cost at all to charity. The owners daughter closed it down causing a lot of stress having already given permission by the stadium to host it. Having been told that what I did was unethical I think you can imagine how flipping delighted I was to see this news.

 

[Eeyore]

Virtually the whole of the Sarries 1st XV are away on World Cup duty so miss the first 3 rounds of the Premiership plus most will miss Rounds 4 and 5 to recover from the tournament, but they're still expected to field a second side and reserves and still stay within the cap.

The base value of the salary cap is £7 million - with add-ons for international it might be £8 million for Sarries for the whole year. That's supposed to cover a squad of 40-odd players but wouldn't even cover Harry Kane's basic wage at Spurs. That's less than Leinster, and about two-thirds of Toulon, with whom they're trying to compete for European Cups.

I think their appeal will not be wholly successful but I still think they'll be hit with a hefty points penalty that will cost them a European Cup place and a crippling fine. I just hope they survive as a club because after what has been meted out their very existence is now in doubt.

It was the same at previous tournaments. Other teams are affected too. Sarries had 14 representatives, but I know that the other Premiership sides had a few too (Quins 9).

 

[Pavilionaire]

Is it not because of Sarries that those teams cannot compete ? Exeter, who haven't broken the salary cap, excepted.

My team, Quins, won the 2012 title without breaking it. Leicester continued to do well until a few years back. I think Northampton reached the senior of the European trophy finals.

Leicester had six players in the World Cup squad. Exeter, I think, four.

I think it's wrong to justify Sarries actions by holding rugby development to ransom. Since Sarries rise everyone else appears to have played by the rules. It was always suspected something wasn't right.

The problem is at the elite level in Europe the French clubs have a much higher ceiling for wages, while the Irish clubs also have larger budgets than the English teams. The only clubs that can afford Itoje, Farrell, Billy Vunipola are Leinster, Munster and the top French clubs, and if they leave Saracens then they'll be ineligible to play for England under the RFU selection policy rules which only permit overseas players when there is deemed to be an injury crisis and no adequate replacements available.

 

[Eeyore]

The problem is at the elite level in Europe the French clubs have a much higher ceiling for wages, while the Irish clubs also have larger budgets than the English teams. The only clubs that can afford Itoje, Farrell, Billy Vunipola are Leinster, Munster and the top French clubs, and if they leave Saracens then they'll be ineligible to play for England under the RFU selection policy rules which only permit overseas players when there is deemed to be an injury crisis and no adequate replacements available.

I'm in agreement on all that. And I suspect the rules would change if there was an exodus.

I feel that there is no justification for gaining an unfair advantage over others though.

I'll never forget when Sarries signed Chris Ashton. I was aghast and wondering how they could manage to pull in another top signing from a club like Northampton. It's quite apparent now.

 

[Sheebo]

Me personally? Look, Saracens are going to appeal the decision, they feel they have grounds, I don't know the detail. What they haven't done is directly pay excessive salaries - the accounts show that. It's whether third party deals are going to be construed as salary by any other name.

If they've done wrong then so be it, but if they are punished that won't change the fact that Europe is not operating on a level playing field. Just look at the Galacticos plying their trade at Toulon: Eben Etzebeth, Mamuka Gorgodze, Sergio Parisse, Rhys Webb, Ben Te'o, Julian Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder.

And they're current mid-table in the French league!

Yes - I’m surprised the odd poster has accused them of cheating without knowing the full facts. Typical NSC. It seems like loophole exploitation to me but again, we don’t now the facts. How anyone can claim it to be cheating at this stage, considering there is the below claim, is mental:

"It's been acknowledged by the panel that we never deliberately sought to mislead anyone or breach the cap.”

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Virtually the whole of the Sarries 1st XV are away on World Cup duty so miss the first 3 rounds of the Premiership plus most will miss Rounds 4 and 5 to recover from the tournament, but they're still expected to field a second side and reserves and still stay within the cap.

The base value of the salary cap is £7 million - with add-ons for international it might be £8 million for Sarries for the whole year. That's supposed to cover a squad of 40-odd players but wouldn't even cover Harry Kane's basic wage at Spurs. That's less than Leinster, and about two-thirds of Toulon, with whom they're trying to compete for European Cups.

I think their appeal will not be wholly successful but I still think they'll be hit with a hefty points penalty that will cost them a European Cup place and a crippling fine. I just hope they survive as a club because after what has been meted out their very existence is now in doubt.

This website seems to think that they are relatively well compensated for having loads of England internationals. I have no idea of what a rugby salary is, but £2 million a year I was under the impression would pay for some decent replacements for 7 or so internationals.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-are-spending-pound2m-over-the-salary-cap-and-its-legal/

 

[Eeyore]

Yes - I’m surprised the odd poster has accused them of cheating without knowing the full facts. Typical NSC. It seems like loophole exploitation to me but again, we don’t now the facts. How anyone can claim it to be cheating at this stage, considering there is the below claim, is mental:

"It's been acknowledged by the panel that we never deliberately sought to mislead anyone or breach the cap.”

You don't get fined £5m quid and deducted 26 points for admin errors.

The evidence shows that Sarries have found other ways to compensate their players A conclusion that thousands of not irrational rugby fans drew years ago.

 

[Eeyore]

Let's get this in perspective. That penalty is 30% of Saracen's annual turnover. That's like Man Utd getting a penalty of £188million.

It seems the RFU are prepared for Saracens to go out of business.

Very unlikely. Like other clubs, Sarries will have/be receiving £14m from the CVC minority share deal in English rugby.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Very unlikely. Like other clubs, Sarries will have/be receiving £14m from the CVC minority share deal in English rugby.

They've been losing £3 mill a year and accounts show net assets of just £2 million, and this is having reached the top of the tree in England and Europe. They can't get any higher without enlarging their stadium, so a fine of £5 mill and -35 points is massive, I don't see how they could pay it.

 

[Eeyore]

They've been losing £3 mill a year and accounts show net assets of just £2 million, and this is having reached the top of the tree in England and Europe. They can't get any higher without enlarging their stadium, so a fine of £5 mill and -35 points is massive, I don't see how they could pay it.

The CVC money was only agreed recently. So it looks like it's to come. So they can pay it. The investment is worth £14m per club.

Look, I think the verdict was correct. But it's the fans I worry for. I'm rugby first, Quins second. Sarries should survive despite. I hope for the fans they do.

But it's clear they've been trying to get round things to the detriment of others. They had to be pulled up for it. But I'm genuinely sorry for you as a fan.

Edit: I thought it was a 26 point deduction. My bad. They are -26. But that's 6 or 7 wins. I think you'll do it.