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[Football] Qatar bans Crusaders costumes — and their plastic swords

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Stato

Members
Dec 21, 2011
5,377
I was going to just say that up till about 20 - 25 years ago most England fans used the Union flag with their towns/cities/clubs on , and as such we are probably going to also see an overhaul on what the new "thing" for English fans will be in the near future ( probably hastened by these events ) . But you should not knock our armed forces , especially in November . Besides you don`t fight in Dress Uniforms , seriously having a pop at our forces is bang out of order .

In fact go read some fucking history , it will tell you why you are able to talk so freely on a site like this . There is not a single country on planet earth that doesn`t have a piece of it`s history they wouldn`t change given the chance , overall we have done far more good in this world than harm .
I didn't knock the armed forces at all. It was a joke about us having the largest empire the world has ever seen. It covered a third of the globe. I know this, not from just watching Horrible Histories, but also because I've read quite a lot of history. Given your 'more harm than good' argument, I guess you're a fan of Niall Ferguson's 'Empire'. I was taken with some of its arguments, but felt that it minimised the role of the Victorians' mistaken belief in European Exceptionalism, partly because the author still seems to suffer from this eroneous worldview. What did you think?
 

TugWilson

I gotta admit that I`m a little bit confused
Dec 8, 2020
1,310
Dorset
Isn't like almost everybody saying it is wrong?

While I hope Qatar changes their ideals to a more inclusive and tolerant attitude, its hard to demand it. "We do like this in the West, so you guys must do this as well" is not the way to go. We would never accept the opposite; Qatarians or Saudis or Chinese coming to Europe and demaning that we change our rules and attitudes to how they do it at home. So why should they accept the opposite?

Change may come, most likely it will in due time, but the problem isn't really Qatari rules as they have to decide for themselves how they want to run their country. No, the problem is putting a World Cup in a country where some 10-20% of all people are going to feel alienated and threatened if they participate in what should be an all-including football tournament.
I think with halal meat which is imo cruel and inhumane and with observing Muslim traditions in a Christian country , we are giving a site more than we receive over there .
 

Guinness Boy

“Self appointed racist finder general”
All-powerful Moderator
Jul 23, 2003
28,760
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Unfortunately I think it is more likely that this World Cup is setting things back a bit.

The tournament is an intiative taken by a handful of people from the Qatari elite. The people generally don't like football, the natives Qataris are mainly into traditional Arabic sports like falconry and camel racing (and increasingly also normal racing). Football - definitely not.

To a lot of them, Khalifa Al Thani is a very liberal - too liberal - man wasting time and money on a tournament they don't and inviting a bunch of Western people they don't really want to come. This is pretty much Western culture and Western attitudes being enforced on them, and I think there could be a backlash from that. Generally speaking the countries in these regions are moving towards more Western attitudes and it is happening somewhat "naturally". Their big boss now telling them "I'm inviting this shitty sport and these weird people and you'll just have to accept it" could disrupt that development.
You're talking about a place that held the 2019 World Athletics Championships. has an annual Grand Prix, has about 88% of its population made up by ex pats, sponsors / funds PSG and has a well advertised airport that acts as hub to Westerners travelling all over the planet.
 

Triggaaar

Members
Oct 24, 2005
45,497
Goldstone
You can't really argue with any of the above, it is pretty crass and at the very least antagonistic, you know what your wearing and your doing it for a reaction.
I think it's right they're banned, because it understandably can cause offence. However, that doesn't mean they're doing it for a reaction. People have worn such costumes at other matches across the world, where the locals and opponents are unlikely to be offended by them. It is a bit stupid though, they should no it's not really appropriate.
 

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
21,317
Sweden
I think with halal meat which is imo cruel and inhumane and with observing Muslim traditions in a Christian country , we are giving a site more than we receive over there .
If you think the non-halal meat industry is any less cruel and inhumane, you're dead wrong.

Most Muslim countries also allow Christians to do pretty much what they want as well. Qatar is one of the few exceptions.
 

Triggaaar

Members
Oct 24, 2005
45,497
Goldstone
Hmm. I don't think the 'Viking' comparison is quite the same. The Viking invasions are seen as part of the waves of invasions that helped to create us, the English/British. The Crusades are still viewed in a hostile light by the Arab/Muslim world.
I agree they're not quite the same, but it's probably a better comparison than dressing as a Nazi in Poland, given just how horrendous the Nazis were and the fact that it's still in living memory.

I don't see the Viking invasions as helping us. They were cruel rapists and murderers. But it was a long time ago, so I'm not sure if anyone is offended by Viking costumes.
 


TugWilson

I gotta admit that I`m a little bit confused
Dec 8, 2020
1,310
Dorset
It's not like they're protesting against the Qatari regime though is it?

They're wearing something that could be v offensive to ordinary citizens and visitors.
I personally would get more angry at Spanish fans who wear Bullfighters dress , barbaric cowards , but apparently torturing is allowed so the Spaniards are ok , but hey it would take a fool to believe if it wasn`t the crusade get up it would be something else . If anyone thinks this is the last thing we will be pulled on - forget it , my money is more incoming within an hour of tonight`s game ...any takers .
 

rippleman

Members
Oct 18, 2011
4,155
Almost a thousand years has passed since the first crusade. In the millenia since we have persecuted jews (many times), catholics, protestants, Asian and afro-caribbean communities, Irish, women, gays etc.

We don't do it any more. And certainly there is no retribution from those communities for the wrongs that were done to them back in the mists of time.

We have grown up as a country and civilisation. For the Qatari's to get so het up about Crusader fancy dress does sort of push me into the "it was nearly a thousand years ago, get over it" camp.
 

TugWilson

I gotta admit that I`m a little bit confused
Dec 8, 2020
1,310
Dorset
I didn't knock the armed forces at all. It was a joke about us having the largest empire the world has ever seen. It covered a third of the globe. I know this, not from just watching Horrible Histories, but also because I've read quite a lot of history. Given your 'more harm than good' argument, I guess you're a fan of Niall Ferguson's 'Empire'. I was taken with some of its arguments, but felt that it minimised the role of the Victorians' mistaken belief in European Exceptionalism, partly because the author still seems to suffer from this eroneous worldview. What did you think?
I think your knowledge is greater than mine , i have not read that book but will make the effort to . I genuinely believe for all our faults the British are amazing , thanks to the industrial revolution the entire world took two steps forward . There is a massive difference between the British Empire and the Roman Empire for instance , they never had any intentions of handing back conquered territories or making reparations whereas we still have a Commonwealth built around a continuing trust and cooperation .
 

TugWilson

I gotta admit that I`m a little bit confused
Dec 8, 2020
1,310
Dorset
If you think the non-halal meat industry is any less cruel and inhumane, you're dead wrong.

Most Muslim countries also allow Christians to do pretty much what they want as well. Qatar is one of the few exceptions.
And the one we are talking about !
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
21,317
Sweden
Almost a thousand years has passed since the first crusade. In the millenia since we have persecuted jews (many times), catholics, protestants, Asian and afro-caribbean communities, Irish, women, gays etc.

We don't do it any more. And certainly there is no retribution from those communities for the wrongs that were done to them back in the mists of time.

We have grown up as a country and civilisation. For the Qatari's to get so het up about Crusader fancy dress does sort of push me into the "it was nearly a thousand years ago, get over it" camp.
The crusades were nearly a thousand years ago yes but Qatar was an English colony just 50 years ago so to then come and dress up in clothes celebrating your imperialism is pretty bad taste.
 

BBassic

I changed this.
Jul 28, 2011
10,580
I guess you're a fan of Niall Ferguson's 'Empire'.
I've got this on my shelf waiting to be read. It kept cropping up as a 'must read book' about the Empire. I'm guessing it's slanted heavily in favour?

If so, have you got any recommendations for books that are not quite so "tally-ho, pip pip aren't we great" ?
 

Stato

Members
Dec 21, 2011
5,377
I think your knowledge is greater than mine , i have not read that book but will make the effort to . I genuinely believe for all our faults the British are amazing , thanks to the industrial revolution the entire world took two steps forward . There is a massive difference between the British Empire and the Roman Empire for instance , they never had any intentions of handing back conquered territories or making reparations whereas we still have a Commonwealth built around a continuing trust and cooperation .
If you're going to 'read some f-ing history', don't stop at Ferguson. He's an interesting voice to contradict the critical view of the British Empire, but he found popularity partly because he tells his audience what it wants to hear. Although our post colonial guilt makes us embarrassed to argue that the pursuit of Empire may have been some intended and unintended consequences for the good, I have sympathy with some of his critics. He can read a bit like somebody who didn't realise that Al Murray's pub landlord character is intended to be satire.
 
I was going to just say that up till about 20 - 25 years ago most England fans used the Union flag with their towns/cities/clubs on , and as such we are probably going to also see an overhaul on what the new "thing" for English fans will be in the near future ( probably hastened by these events ) . But you should not knock our armed forces , especially in November . Besides you don`t fight in Dress Uniforms , seriously having a pop at our forces is bang out of order .

In fact go read some fucking history , it will tell you why you are able to talk so freely on a site like this . There is not a single country on planet earth that doesn`t have a piece of it`s history they wouldn`t change given the chance , overall we have done far more good in this world than harm .
As a veteran, I don't see any pop at our armed forces so don't use us as a weapon against your opinions.
 

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