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[Football] Offside and VAR



dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,189
Surely, under the current regime, the lino should have let play continue and then raise the flag for offside after the move was over.

Presumably then, assuming the above is true, the lino genuinely thought it was not offside. He was wrong obviously, but mistakes happen, and we don't want var reviewing everything.
Correct. Either he thought Ronaldo was onside, or he got the rule wrong. Nothing to do with VAR either way.
 




dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,189
Haven't seen this mentioned.
During the Chelsea v Man Utd game Ronnie was passed the ball inside the Chelsea half, but he was at least 2 yards offside. He then ran a third of the pitch with the ball whilst a Chelsea defender ran back. At the last second the defender tackled Ronnie and conceded a corner. Ref gave a corner because the Lino didn't flag for offside, despite seeing it. Had it been a goal VAR would have given offside, indeed the Lino would have put his flag up indicating offside. But it wasn't a goal and so they 'played on' despite Ronnie being 2 yards offside and it not even being a close desicion.
Tuchel was booked for dissent for pointing out to the 4th official that it was clearly offside.
Luckily Man Utd didn't score from the corner but had they one can only guess at the state of Tuchel had they scored.
Thoughts.
And if you say 'play to the whistle', well Chelsea did and got penalised.
If you say 'let him score' what if the Ref just gives it anyway?
If you say 'hack him down' the defender would get a red.
If you say "let him score" and he does, VAR would disallow it. Unless of course the linesman had been right and the player wrong, and then wouldn't the player look a charlie. That's not going to happen.

If you hack him down in a violent conduct manner, the red card stands. If you hack him down in a professional foul manner, then VAR will overturn it because they will look at the offside. But all of that is academic because the reason the offside was not given was because the linesman made a mistake and the rules (if correctly applied) would not have led to a corner.

How do you know the linesman saw the offside? Obviously he should have seen it, but how do you know he did?
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
There is no 'player safety element'. That has been spouted by a few idiot commentators and pundits - its completely nonsensical. If play continues, someone might break their leg. If flagged offside - play would resume and someone might break their leg.

Yup. I've heard lots of people say the "player safety" thing but no one is able to back up with any sort of logical argument.
 


SeagullsoverLondon

......
NSC Patron
Jun 20, 2021
3,210
There is no 'player safety element'. That has been spouted by a few idiot commentators and pundits - its completely nonsensical. If play continues, someone might break their leg. If flagged offside - play would resume and someone might break their leg.
I think the point is that yes, at any point in the game a player may get his leg broken. But if the flag goes up, and the whistle blows, then the chance of a needless leg break won't happen at that particular point in time.
The lino should always flag obvious ones, and leave the marginal ones to VAR, as they will overrule. Yesterday's one was such an obvious one you can see why the Chelsea dugout were so annoyed



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dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,189
I think the point is that yes, at any point in the game a player may get his leg broken. But if the flag goes up, and the whistle blows, then the chance of a needless leg break won't happen at that particular point in time.
The lino should always flag obvious ones, and leave the marginal ones to VAR, as they will overrule. Yesterday's one was such an obvious one you can see why the Chelsea dugout were so annoyed
Of course, to extend the argument further, if the linesman flags for incidents where he believes the player to be onside, it will increase player safety even more. :)
 




SeagullsoverLondon

......
NSC Patron
Jun 20, 2021
3,210
Of course, to extend the argument further, if the linesman flags for incidents where he believes the player to be onside, it will increase player safety even more. :)
But he should only do that if he is covering our defence!
Our attackers are in no danger of leg breaks because everyone knows they won't score anyway

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Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
14,847
Booooooooooooooooooooo!
 






McTavish

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2014
1,562
Yup. I've heard lots of people say the "player safety" thing but no one is able to back up with any sort of logical argument.

The main argument is that a player beating the offside trap is very often through on the keeper. Rapidly advancing keeper vs on-rushing forward is one of the most dangerous situations in football with a big risk of injury for both players.
 


Super Steve Earle

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
8,357
North of Brighton
Yup. I've heard lots of people say the "player safety" thing but no one is able to back up with any sort of logical argument.

Here you go:

Option 1: Asst flags for offside. Ref blows whistle. Play stops with no chance of injury to anyone.

Option 2: Asst doesn't flag and leaves it to VAR if needed. Forward runs on goal. Gets clattered by desperate Lamptey speed defender who catches him or onrushing keeper. Potential injury to forward that could have been avoided by offside being flagged.
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Here you go:

Option 1: Asst flags for offside. Ref blows whistle. Play stops with no chance of injury to anyone.

Option 2: Asst doesn't flag and leaves it to VAR if needed. Forward runs on goal. Gets clattered by desperate Lamptey speed defender who catches him or onrushing keeper. Potential injury to forward that could have been avoided by offside being flagged.

So in a situation where the linesman think it is 50/50 he should wave because of the injury risk?

Same for other situations? Lets say there's a duel in the middle of the pitch, could be a free kick for either team but the ref allows the game to go on, should be blow to prevent injury? Should the advantage rule be removed because there is a risk of injury if the game is allowed to continue?
 




Superphil

Dismember
Jul 7, 2003
25,419
In a pile of football shirts
I really don’t understand the logic of not flagging for offside, especially if it’s clear and obvious. Perhaps when fans get more of a say in what they want to see, sense might prevail.

Will never happen.
 


Springal

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2005
23,831
GOSBTS
Here you go:


Option 2: Asst doesn't flag and leaves it to VAR if needed. Forward runs on goal. Gets clattered by desperate Lamptey speed defender who catches him or onrushing keeper. Potential injury to forward that could have been avoided by offside being flagged.

Similar did actually happen last season. Fairly obvious off side, assistant let it run, striker got injured and then flag went up.
 


Super Steve Earle

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
8,357
North of Brighton
So in a situation where the linesman think it is 50/50 he should wave because of the injury risk?

Same for other situations? Lets say there's a duel in the middle of the pitch, could be a free kick for either team but the ref allows the game to go on, should be blow to prevent injury? Should the advantage rule be removed because there is a risk of injury if the game is allowed to continue?

No, not at all. My answer was in the context of the quoted incident where the world and his wife could see the player was offside, but no flag. The consensus is that he made a mistake anyway rather than rely on VAR later, but in general terms, no, not 50/50 situations, but those where the asst can clearly see a player is offside, but fails to flag and leaves it to VAR to intervene later if a goal is scored.

No to the second scenario too. I was only referring specifically to offside.
 




PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
18,704
Hurst Green
Defender should have just grabbed the **** and slam dunked him in a friendly but firm way. Hair ruffled the turd would have gone ballistic. Adams apple moving in over drive hopefully resulting in him being sent off.

As it was the ref was so ****ing weak, booked the **** who then clapped him, surely that's dissent for which he should have been the first in the shower and in front of a mirror. Also when the penalty was given that prick captain of theirs should have gone for persistent swearing at the ref. The same prick that only needs a gust of wind to get falling over. Utd are full of entitled nobodies.
 


SeagullsoverLondon

......
NSC Patron
Jun 20, 2021
3,210
So in a situation where the linesman think it is 50/50 he should wave because of the injury risk?

Same for other situations? Lets say there's a duel in the middle of the pitch, could be a free kick for either team but the ref allows the game to go on, should be blow to prevent injury? Should the advantage rule be removed because there is a risk of injury if the game is allowed to continue?
No, if it obvious put the flag up. 50/50 keep it down.

The difference in your second scenario compared to obvious offside is there is no advantage gained by the side to whom the offence has been committed (i.e. obvious offside) whereas in the second case, the ref is playing an advantage for the side where a player has been fouled.
There would be no game if we stop play every time someone "could" get injured, because there would be no tackling allowed.
Or in Danny Welbeck's case, he would not be allowed on the pitch at all, even for a warm up on his own!

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Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,932
Uckfield
Lino's should have the confidence to flag if they see it as offside.

If we have to keep VAR then fair to keep flag down if marginal. Otherwise we need to get on with the actual game, not the phoney game in which someone is playing for a corner because everyone knows if it's a goal it's going to be chalked off

Maybe give the lino another option. At the moment it's binary: they either flag offside or they don't. The problem with the latter, is that the VAR rules don't always result in an incorrect decision to not flag being corrected. But maybe they coudl take a leaf from American Football: give the lino an in-between option where they can drop a flag on the sideline that says "I think that potential offside needs to be checked", and the VAR rules tweaked to accommodate running that check at the next stoppage (regardless of what the stoppage is for). Indeed, it could be run while play carries on and the VAR pull the play up early if an offside is confirmed.
 


Acker79

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 15, 2008
31,855
Brighton
Injuries happen for one of two reasons: one or more player acts without regard for their own or their opponent's safety, or it is 'one of those things'. You can't legislate for the latter, and I don't think it's right to blame the officals for the former.
 




Official Old Man

Uckfield Seagull
Aug 27, 2011
8,548
Brighton
Tried to find video online but I guess the EPL take it all down quicker than anyone can put it up.
In responce to 'did the Lino see it?'. It was over 2 yards offside. Huge gap that, had the lino been watching I'm a Celebrity he would have had time to glance around and see it.
As for the injury scenario, whilst chasing back the defender was having a go at the Lino who had not and did not put his flag up. So as far as the defender was concerned it was onside and therefore Ronaldo was on his way to score the winning goal. Lose to Man Utd or hack down Ronnie from behind? No brainer, take the red card but could the Man Utd superstar have got injured?
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,306
Maybe give the lino another option. At the moment it's binary: they either flag offside or they don't. The problem with the latter, is that the VAR rules don't always result in an incorrect decision to not flag being corrected. But maybe they coudl take a leaf from American Football: give the lino an in-between option where they can drop a flag on the sideline that says "I think that potential offside needs to be checked", and the VAR rules tweaked to accommodate running that check at the next stoppage (regardless of what the stoppage is for). Indeed, it could be run while play carries on and the VAR pull the play up early if an offside is confirmed.

absolutly no. they agonise over a decision with VAR no way quick enough. they'll er on one side or other, constantly stop play bring it back, then decide it wasnt offside. how to restart?

its really simple, flag if offside, not flag if offside and a goal is scored and needs to go to VAR. since they dont know the future (bad enough handling the present), they should always flag if they think its offside.

and chalk this one up to a poor decision. caused by expectation of VAR, which we need to stop.
 


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