national strike

[pastafarian]

That's not what he's saying. He's not asking for better terms, he saying the term's offered were attractive to him, which is why he took the job, and now the government is reneging on his contract. The argument makes perfect sense.

so the same as 100`s of thousands of private sector workers who have had to renegotiate their original contract .....or loose their job its called economics,unfortunately the unions havnt realized pensions are out of control,millions of others have managed to reach this opinion.........but why is it union members cannot understand pensions are in a mess

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

so the same as 100`s of thousands of private sector workers who have had to renegotiate their original contract .....or loose their job its called economics,unfortunately the unions havnt realized pensions are out of control,millions of others have managed to reach this opinion.........but why is it union members cannot understand pensions are in a mess

Well first, if you read everything in detail you'll understand public sector pensions are not in a mess, that's right-wing spin, they want to force the future cost of pensions down so these services are more attractive to privatisation. But that's been discussed to death on here.

As far as contracts go - and leaving aside the fact that they already renegotiated their pension deals a short time ago - that's not how contracts work: "accept a poorer deal or lose your job". That kind of threat is exactly why union's were created in the first place, and this is the first time in a while that a strike is truly justified.

 

[fork me]

I've seen a few teachers give this argument, and I don't understand it. If you wanted to be a teacher then fair enough, but you can't then use the fact that you could get a higher paid job to improve your terms as a teacher.

I'm not trying to use it to improve my terms, I'm trying to keep the terms I was promised when I signed up. See the subtle difference?

Basically, I accepted a lower salary to do a job in the community that helped others. When I did that, I was given a pension contract, which I have been paying into.

Now, the government want to worsen the conditions of that, AFTER agreeing it and AFTER I have paid in.

That's not right, we're being shafted, and I for one am glad that people aren't just sitting back and accepting it.

 

[fork me]

were you a teacher ? if you are/were , no wonder we're in so much shit. it's gilt edged you ****.

Of course, bushy, if my arguments are so watertight that you have no way of countering them, you could always just pick up on a typo instead in a failed attempt to make yourself look superior...

...Oh sorry, you already did.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well first, if you read everything in detail you'll understand public sector pensions are not in a mess, that's right-wing spin, they want to force the future cost of pensions down so these services are more attractive to privatisation. But that's been discussed to death on here.

was it right wing spin when Labour were starting this ball rolling, closing many final salary schemes to new empolyees? and Hutton whose recommendations have lead to the current policy is a right winger. I would also love to know when we can expect to see the privatisation of the NHS, Education, MoD, Civil service, local government etc, etc.

As far as contracts go - and leaving aside the fact that they already renegotiated their pension deals a short time ago - that's not how contracts work: "accept a poorer deal or lose your job". That kind of threat is exactly why union's were created in the first place, and this is the first time in a while that a strike is truly justified.

i think as football fans we should be aware more than others in the general public that contracts arent set in stone or irreversible. they are starting point for future negotiation.

Yeah its a bit shit, but as some companies have found if you dont resovle this pension liability you go to the wall. thats the prospect down the line, in 10, 20, 30 years time, that other services are substantially cut, or government folds under the weight of pensions. 18% of all spending goes there as it is, slightly more than the cost of the NHS.

 

[User removed 4]

Of course, bushy, if my arguments are so watertight that you have no way of countering them, you could always just pick up on a typo instead in a failed attempt to make yourself look superior...

...Oh sorry, you already did.

I wasn't trying to counter your arguments, xxxxxx xxxxxxx, and it wasn't a typo, it was a spelling mistake.

 

[Common as Mook]

BBC News - Pension switch ruled lawful by High Court

 

[fork me]

was it right wing spin when Labour were starting this ball rolling, closing many final salary schemes to new empolyees?

Simple answer? Yes.

 

[fork me]

I wasn't trying to counter your arguments, xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx, and it wasn't a typo, it was a spelling mistake.

Awww, now you're getting all sweary.

Have I upset you that much?

Pity.

Hey, here's an idea, why don't you make some silly threats to me as well, I've been told you're good at that.

 

[User removed 4]

Awww, now you're getting all sweary.

Have I upset you that much?
Pity.

Hey, here's an idea, why don't you make some silly threats to me as well, I've been told you're good at that.

No, not really, someone doesnt have to upset me for me to think that, xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, not really, someone doesnt have to upset me for me to think that, xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx.

Hello. I'm on holiday today

 

[H block]

Hello. I'm on holiday today

According to above the prick vacancy has been filled. Any experience of being a cvnt ?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

was it right wing spin when Labour were starting this ball rolling, closing many final salary schemes to new empolyees? and Hutton whose recommendations have lead to the current policy is a right winger. I would also love to know when we can expect to see the privatisation of the NHS, Education, MoD, Civil service, local government etc, etc.

well yes, obviously, we all know Labour moved to the right under Blair, it was a kind of compassionate conservatism but some policies were completely on the tory side of the aisle. Still, they were elected, thats democracy and I have less problem with pension schemes being different for new employees, that reform is needed to keep the pension schemes viable with changing demographics.

Privatisation of all those departments you list. Well, many local government services have been outsourced, thats no secret. Labour pushed a lot of PFI plans on hospitals and the like. I would love to know how pension schemes work in the new free schools Gove has opened, they can pay their teachers what they want, yes?, how do the pensions work?

A privatised MoD? well some would say the large defence contractors have an unhealthy influence on our foreign policy.

i think as football fans we should be aware more than others in the general public that contracts arent set in stone or irreversible. they are starting point for future negotiation.

Yeah its a bit shit, but as some companies have found if you dont resovle this pension liability you go to the wall. thats the prospect down the line, in 10, 20, 30 years time, that other services are substantially cut, or government folds under the weight of pensions. 18% of all spending goes there as it is, slightly more than the cost of the NHS.

But NHS pensions have a surplus. In other cases local governments have taken pension holidays. As in much in life, it aint the workers fault but the bosses incompetence.

as far as contract law goes, do the workers have a choice? can they take full redundancy with payoffs if they don't like the new pension deal? or do they just get shafted?

 

[beorhthelm]

Privatisation of all those departments you list. Well, many local government services have been outsourced, thats no secret. Labour pushed a lot of PFI plans on hospitals and the like. I would love to know how pension schemes work in the new free schools Gove has opened, they can pay their teachers what they want, yes?, how do the pensions work?

A privatised MoD? well some would say the large defence contractors have an unhealthy influence on our foreign policy.

Local government still employ legions of admin staff and the outsourced still get the old pensions anyway; Nurses are still employed by the NHS under PFIs; MoD's admin army (larger than the army itself) still beaver away regardless of the influence on policy by defence industry. interesting question on the teachers. so really all told the privatisation thing was a bit of hyperbole? though privatisation of the MoD would be a damn good idea, cut a mass of waste and become transparent.

But NHS pensions have a surplus. In other cases local governments have taken pension holidays.

people keep on saying this public pension or that public pension is in surplus. its irrelevent as they arent funded, they are only in surplus on a ledger for current year. theres no investment of that pension payments, so what happens in the future?

local goverment i believe is seperate they do run proper invested funds, though theres still the risk the tax payer will be asked to pay any shortfall, as thats the only source of income for the councils.

 

[tedebear]

This explains some of it re the NHS Pensions (bit heavy for lunchtime reading but clears it up the point around an unfunded pension bit):

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN03281.pdf

 

[pastafarian]

Well first, if you read everything in detail you'll understand public sector pensions are not in a mess, that's right-wing spin,.

oh yes,everything is fine and dandy in public sector pension land,it must be right wing spin!!!!!are you due to wake up to reality any time soon? no wonder things are such a mess when there are people like you around with their heads buried in the sand prepared to say business as usual!

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

oh yes,everything is fine and dandy in public sector pension land,it must be right wing spin!!!!!are you due to wake up to reality any time soon? no wonder things are such a mess when there are people like you around with their heads buried in the sand prepared to say business as usual!

NHS pensions 2 billion surplus?

Some pension schemes are in a bit of a mess because some local authorities took pension holidays or invested them badly. Their fault, they'll have to raise council taxes to cover the shortfall, don't see why the employees have to suffer?

 

[pastafarian]

Well first, if you read everything in detail you'll understand public sector pensions are not in a mess, that's right-wing spin.

Some pension schemes are in a bit of a mess because some local authorities took pension holidays or invested them badly.

im glad you have finally not managed to make your mind up what you are talking about

 

[m20gull]

NHS pensions 2 billion surplus?

According to the report posted on this page the position of the unfunded NHS scheme is liabilities of £258bn, assets of zero.