Manchester United - Parallels with the decline of Liverpool in the early '90s?

[Gwylan]

I think the Glovers have got to spend big this month to set down a marker otherwise they are going to struggle to finish in the Top 4

It will be some achievement for Yeovil to get out of the bottom three TBH

 

[e77]

They will only be replaced by plastic Gooners, Chelsea or Scousers, which is just as bad IMHO.

There were a fair amount of Man U fans in Sussex when they were poor in the 1980s (Arthur Albiston, anyone?) like there are a lot of Liverpool fans now.

I think what happens with the big clubs is eventually they lose their advantages over time. For example Arsenal's scouting network in the 90s was head and shoulders above anything else in this country (and probably Europe) which allowed them to get players from other clubs academies (e.g. Fabregas) or seemingly not setting the world alight (e.g. Henry) then sell them off for a fortune with the confidence that they would find a replacement.

With Man U I think other clubs have released that having a 'brand' abroad is worth a fortune and the big European teams have done a lot of work on it in the last decade.

However, in football, dynasties rise and fall.

 

[joeinbrighton]

There were a fair amount of Man U fans in Sussex when they were poor in the 1980s (Arthur Albiston, anyone?) like there are a lot of Liverpool fans now.

Arthur Albiston is the answer to a good trivia question, namely who was the only player to play for Manchester United under both Sir Alex Ferguson and Tommy Docherty. He was in the team in Ferguson's first match in charge in 1986 against Oxford and he made his debut for United in the mid-1970s when they were playing in the 2nd division under Docherty.

Thinking about it, there are certain parallels between Manchester United and AC Milan. Ferguson was a great admirer of Milan's team under Carlo Ancelotti and he particularly admired how Milan managed to keep the spine of their team playing into their late 30s and even 40s in the case of Paolo Maldini and Alessandro Costacurta and he looked at how they managed the fitness of their older players in order to prolong the careers of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes. In recent years though, since the match fixing scandal and since the likes of Gattuso retired and Pirlo was allowed to leave to go to Juventus, Milan have regressed. Their replaced their best players with mediocre replacements and the result is that they were in 12th place in Serie A going into Christmas. Prolonging players' careers is great in theory, but what it also does is put off making the tough rebuilding decisions and so now both United and Milan are having to be reactive to the situation rather than planning ahead of the game.

 

[Albion Rob]

Five years ago I would have said its hard to imagine them going the same way as Liverpool - their stadium is almost twice the size, they were well ahead in Asia etc - but now maybe not. I read the other day how much they have paid in interest since the Glazers' takeover and presumably that has stopped them picking up a couple of genuine world class players to strengthen (I guess it is easier to tempt, say, Messi if you tell him you're also in for Bale).

As has been said before, it seems that other clubs have just caught up too - and they can't buy their way out of it because of the above.

Quite good for the league though, a bit like Serie A - the overall quality may have declined with no super dominant team to chase but the league is a bit more competitive and interesting.

 

[Pavilionaire]

It's testament to Man Utd's organisational success that it is almost unthinkable they could finish outside the top 3 - this hasn't happened since 1991. But even Barca and Real have managed 5 finishes outside the top 3 in La Liga since 2000, so even the biggest teams can have a blip. United are due.

 

[Machiavelli]

Arsenal have had a fabulous 2013 but I fancy City's superior squad will pay dividends and they'll be above Arsenal by the end of the season.

It's a big season overall for City. United are weak and they've drawn Barcelona in the Champions League. This season could really establish them as a European superpower. I'm not saying they'll deliver, but they've got a great opportunity. United have sat and watched Arsenal grab Ozil and Madrid grab Bale, while Aguero and Suarez go from strength to strength. It's certainly some test for Moyes to hold it together - you wonder whether he'd take no trophies but 4th place if offered now?

Agree with much of what you say. But what do you mean by United have drawn Barca in the CL?

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm not really looking for Man Utd to have an epic fail - I prefer them to Arsenal and Chelsea - but this whole situation does have a whiff of "fin de siècle".

The Liverpool demise was really down to a heavily ageing team, but when Kenny left they still had a pretty awesome side and were the best on paper even then. With Man Utd now you look at the team and the bench and you'd place them behind City, Chelsea and Arsenal, and on a par with Spurs and Liverpool. However, Spurs and Liverpool are beginning to gel, whereas this Man Utd team is creeking.

Not so sure if I agree with this fin de siecle about United. It's just the midfield that needs some serious work. Their goalie is as good as there is in the world at the mo. RvP, Rooney, Wellbeck and Hernandez are a great strike force. Their defenders are excellent individually, but Moyes needs to work things out in terms of who is going to play -- and when -- so that it develops some understanding and, as a consequence, consistency. In midfield, only Carrick is quality, whereas Januzaj is an amazing talent and great potential, but only that; the rest just aren't up to it.

 

[Machiavelli]

Hillsborough was what really marked the beginning of the end for Liverpool. The aftermath of that tragedy drained Kenny Dalglish to such an extent that he didn't have the energy to carry out the rebuilding job that was needed as Hansen retired, and the likes of Ronnie Whelan, Steve Nicol, Steve McMahon and Peter Beardsley left and so he resigned having signed players towards the end of his time who were just not Liverpool players, David Speedie and Jimmy Carter for example. Souness then came in and made some horrendous panic purchases.

With United, they are really paying now for putting off rebuilding certain areas of the team 2-3 years ago. People were saying that they needed to strengthen their midfield as far back as 2009, but Ferguson put it off and ultimately it was left to his successor to sort out and they now also have other areas of the team that also need surgery. This season wasn't helped by Moyes and the new CEO Woodward not starting their jobs officially until July, which meant their preparation for making transfers was not as fastidious as in previous years. They also seem to have had more niggly injuries to key players that have taken longer to clear up than they should have done - Van Persie, Rafael, Vidic and Carrick - than in previous seasons, although in saying that, they managed to largely cope last season when they had a spell when all of their centre backs got injured at the same time, meaning Michael Carrick had to end up playing there.

This is a very good post. The worst thing that United did was not stagger the departure of Ferguson and Gill.

 

[catfish]

Fergie was desperate to 'knock Liverpool off their perch' when he took over at Manure. Apart from Wenger, perhaps, I don't think any of the other managers are as singlemindedly driven.

 

[BensGrandad]

They are going the way they did when Sir Matt Busby left as he had a team that had gone past their best. Sir Alex knew when to retire on a high.

 

[Leighgull]

My thoughts are that Fergusson held on for one year too long. He had a squad of ageing players who had one good year left and decided to push for a last title and go out on a high. It has meant that Moyes walked in to a team that had had its engine taken out and had bits falling off.

It's all about Fergie. Always was.

 

[drew]

Far too early to say. They are the league champions and there was always going to be a blip when Ferguson left. Wait and see if they spend in the window or summer and what they do next year! Personally, would like them to go the way of Wolves and Pompey rather than just Liverpool!