Manchester United - Parallels with the decline of Liverpool in the early '90s?

[Pavilionaire]

1. Popular Scottish club legend resigns as manager (SAF, King Kenny)
2. Replaced by younger Scot (Moyes, Sounness).
3. Talismanic player retires (Scholes, Hansen).
4. Arsenal take over at the top of the league.
5. Key players near the end of their careers at the top level (Giggs, Rio, Evra / Beardsley, Houghton, McMahon)
6. Desperate buys (Fellaini, Zaha, Kagawa / Paul Stewart, Julian Dicks, Neil Ruddock).
7. Emergence of wonder winger among the carnage (Januszaj / McManaman).

What might happen next?

8. Persistent injuries to a key player - in Liverpool's case it was John Barnes. Could this happen to Rooney and / or RVP?
9. Rival team get their act together, in a positions to dominate for years - in Liverpool's case it was Man Utd, could Man City do to Utd what Utd did to Liverpool?

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

I have thought about this, but we will only really know by next season.

 

[Northstandite]

Good points, but come May will ManC or Chelsea (both will all those £100m's injected to acquire better players) be above Arsenal?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Good points, but come May will ManC or Chelsea (both will all those £100m's injected to acquire better players) be above Arsenal?

I hope Arsenal can stay the distance and beat both MC and Chelsea to the title. It would be good for football for a team that is outside the top 4 or so spenders in the league to win. That Arsene has built a side around young English players would also be a great accomplishment.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Arsenal have had a fabulous 2013 but I fancy City's superior squad will pay dividends and they'll be above Arsenal by the end of the season.

It's a big season overall for City. United are weak and they've drawn Barcelona in the Champions League. This season could really establish them as a European superpower. I'm not saying they'll deliver, but they've got a great opportunity. United have sat and watched Arsenal grab Ozil and Madrid grab Bale, while Aguero and Suarez go from strength to strength. It's certainly some test for Moyes to hold it together - you wonder whether he'd take no trophies but 4th place if offered now?

 

[Beach Hut]

I know everyone is desperate for an epic fail at MUFC however I think Moyes will do really well once he gets the players he wants and sorts out dome of the dross like Nani and Anderson for starters.

 

[shaolinpunk]

Not that it's any guarantee, but in my FM game United's finishes have been something along the lines of 4th, 5th, 8th and 11th over the next few years

 

[Icy Gull]

I know everyone is desperate for an epic fail at MUFC however I think Moyes will do really well once he gets the players he wants and sorts out dome of the dross like Nani and Anderson for starters.

If they don't manage 4th place or win the Champion's League are they going to be able to compete with teams in the Champion's League. The money is that big at the top level that playing in the Champion's League is a better motivator than the wage. United will be fecked if they are not in the Champion's League next season IMO.

 

[Hugo Rune]

What might happen next?

10. Hopefully a huge reduction of plastic Mancs in Sussex!

 

[sully]

Moyes is far more experienced than Souness was. I don't think he'll fail long term if they stick by him through the re-building period.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I'm not really looking for Man Utd to have an epic fail - I prefer them to Arsenal and Chelsea - but this whole situation does have a whiff of "fin de siècle".

The Liverpool demise was really down to a heavily ageing team, but when Kenny left they still had a pretty awesome side and were the best on paper even then. With Man Utd now you look at the team and the bench and you'd place them behind City, Chelsea and Arsenal, and on a par with Spurs and Liverpool. However, Spurs and Liverpool are beginning to gel, whereas this Man Utd team is creeking.

 

[SeagullSongs]

If they don't manage 4th place or win the Champion's League are they going to be able to compete with teams in the Champion's League. The money is that big at the top level that playing in the Champion's League is a better motivator than the wage. United will be fecked if they are not in the Champion's League next season IMO.

I've heard somewhere that United could financially cope with one and only one season outside the Champion's League.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

10. Hopefully a huge reduction of plastic Mancs in Sussex!

They will only be replaced by plastic Gooners, Chelsea or Scousers, which is just as bad IMHO.

 

[Northstandite]

Arsenal have had a fabulous 2013 but I fancy City's superior squad will pay dividends and they'll be above Arsenal by the end of the season.

It's a big season overall for City. United are weak and they've drawn Barcelona in the Champions League. This season could really establish them as a European superpower. I'm not saying they'll deliver, but they've got a great opportunity. United have sat and watched Arsenal grab Ozil and Madrid grab Bale, while Aguero and Suarez go from strength to strength. It's certainly some test for Moyes to hold it together - you wonder whether he'd take no trophies but 4th place if offered now?

Various articles on PL finances have proved a near perfect correlation between PL places (averaged over more than a singe season) and money spent on wages. In other words, ManU, Chelsea, ManC and Arsenal spent most money per annum on wages as shown in their audited accounts, and surprise surprise, got top 4 positions. Arsenal despite some well publicised sales against their wishes which distorts the net transfer spend in Wenger's favour, spend a fortune on a stack of players earning between £40k to £120k per week, giving the large squad of internationals that is able stay top 4.

 

[Bold Seagull]

They will only be replaced by plastic Gooners, Chelsea or Scousers, which is just as bad IMHO.

Not sure that is strictly true. I run a kids football team, and for all our age groups training, and at matches in Sussex you see more Albion shirts than the others put together!

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Not sure that is strictly true. I run a kids football team, and for all our age groups training, and at matches in Sussex you see more Albion shirts than the others put together!

Oh I'm not saying there aren't loads more kids wearing Albion shirts now, I've seen it in action & it's brilliant.

But there will always be a selection of armchair United, Spurs, Liverpool etc fans in any town.

 

[Ernest]

I think the Glovers have got to spend big this month to set down a marker otherwise they are going to struggle to finish in the Top 4, I can see this as decline alongside Liverpool's 20 years ago as Moyes is too conservative and not a swashbuckler by instinct.

 

[Tooting Gull]

I think there are certain financial aspects which make it less likely, mainly the sheer scale of the club and worldwide operation, but it is certainly possible that United will slide.

They were not actually left in great shape by Ferguson, there were a lot of issues for an incoming manager - who already had a lot on his plate succeeding him - to deal with. The midfield is average for a PL side, and no match for Europe's best. And that is Fergie's fault for taking his eye off the ball.

The key is the Champions League, or for as long as that is the most lucrative club competition. United can (and probably will) miss out on one, and could cope with that. But if they miss out on more than one then it gets serious and plunges them into a dangerous cycle in relation to their rivals and downward spiral, if those rivals keep getting in the CL.

 

[Albumen]

1. Popular Scottish club legend resigns as manager (SAF, King Kenny)
2. Replaced by younger Scot (Moyes, Sounness).
3. Talismanic player retires (Scholes, Hansen).
4. Arsenal take over at the top of the league.
5. Key players near the end of their careers at the top level (Giggs, Rio, Evra / Beardsley, Houghton, McMahon)
6. Desperate buys (Fellaini, Zaha, Kagawa / Paul Stewart, Julian Dicks, Neil Ruddock).
7. Emergence of wonder winger among the carnage (Januszaj / McManaman).

What might happen next?

8. Persistent injuries to a key player - in Liverpool's case it was John Barnes. Could this happen to Rooney and / or RVP?
9. Rival team get their act together, in a positions to dominate for years - in Liverpool's case it was Man Utd, could Man City do to Utd what Utd did to Liverpool?

6: Zaha and Kagwa both bought by Ferguson, whereas Stewart, Dicks and Ruddock were bought by Souness (I think).
Other than that, it's quite similar. United's run was on the back of the rise of SKY money, it's now a question of who will soak up the Chinese market.

 

[joeinbrighton]

The Liverpool demise was really down to a heavily ageing team, but when Kenny left they still had a pretty awesome side and were the best on paper even then. With Man Utd now you look at the team and the bench and you'd place them behind City, Chelsea and Arsenal, and on a par with Spurs and Liverpool. However, Spurs and Liverpool are beginning to gel, whereas this Man Utd team is creeking.

Hillsborough was what really marked the beginning of the end for Liverpool. The aftermath of that tragedy drained Kenny Dalglish to such an extent that he didn't have the energy to carry out the rebuilding job that was needed as Hansen retired, and the likes of Ronnie Whelan, Steve Nicol, Steve McMahon and Peter Beardsley left and so he resigned having signed players towards the end of his time who were just not Liverpool players, David Speedie and Jimmy Carter for example. Souness then came in and made some horrendous panic purchases.

With United, they are really paying now for putting off rebuilding certain areas of the team 2-3 years ago. People were saying that they needed to strengthen their midfield as far back as 2009, but Ferguson put it off and ultimately it was left to his successor to sort out and they now also have other areas of the team that also need surgery. This season wasn't helped by Moyes and the new CEO Woodward not starting their jobs officially until July, which meant their preparation for making transfers was not as fastidious as in previous years. They also seem to have had more niggly injuries to key players that have taken longer to clear up than they should have done - Van Persie, Rafael, Vidic and Carrick - than in previous seasons, although in saying that, they managed to largely cope last season when they had a spell when all of their centre backs got injured at the same time, meaning Michael Carrick had to end up playing there.