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[Politics] Labour has suspended former leader Jeremy Corbyn

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Nobby Cybergoat

Members
Jul 19, 2021
4,255
To add my view ...

Corbyn is a good man. I don't think he has any racist views towards Jewish people and I think his many opponents have ludicrously weaponised this against him.

However, he let his passion for the rights of the Palestinian people cloud his judgement at not effectively dealing with people in and around his party who were antisemitic.

For that reason Starmer is doing the right thing to throw him out of the party. Labour need to be laser focussed in order win and retain power, (the Tories have the press, which means they can be barely competent and obviously on the take and still win elections). For this reason I accept that Starmer is going to have to "play the game" with not opening the brexit debate up and booting out Corybn etc. I'd say, don't judge Starmer now. Judge him when he's been in power for two years, then you'll know what he's about.
 

BenGarfield

Members
Feb 22, 2019
280
crawley
To add my view ...

Corbyn is a good man. I don't think he has any racist views towards Jewish people and I think his many opponents have ludicrously weaponised this against him.

However, he let his passion for the rights of the Palestinian people cloud his judgement at not effectively dealing with people in and around his party who were antisemitic.

For that reason Starmer is doing the right thing to throw him out of the party. Labour need to be laser focussed in order win and retain power, (the Tories have the press, which means they can be barely competent and obviously on the take and still win elections). For this reason I accept that Starmer is going to have to "play the game" with not opening the brexit debate up and booting out Corybn etc. I'd say, don't judge Starmer now. Judge him when he's been in power for two years, then you'll know what he's about.
Can you give an example of the antisemites you refer to as "in and around Corbyn" who he should in some way have dealt with?
 

Nobby Cybergoat

Members
Jul 19, 2021
4,255
Can you give an example of the antisemites you refer to as "in and around Corbyn" who he should in some way have dealt with?
I don't remember the fellas name, maybe Chris something, but there was definitely one who was caught out saying some stuff at a fringe speech and maybe posting material online as well which certainly overstepped the mark.
 

borat

Members
Jul 16, 2003
273
I don't remember the fellas name, maybe Chris something, but there was definitely one who was caught out saying some stuff at a fringe speech and maybe posting material online as well which certainly overstepped the mark.
This is what Chris Williamson said that got him in trouble

“We’ve done more to address the scourge of anti-Semitism than any political party. The party that has done more to stand up to racism is now being demonised as a racist, bigoted party. “I have got to say I think our party’s response has been partly responsible for that because in my opinion… we’ve backed off far too much, we have given too much ground, we’ve been too apologetic… “We’ve done more to actually address the scourge of antisemitism than any other political party. Any other political party. And yet we are being traduced.”

Corbyn was too nice of a guy to call out the bullsh*t being thrown at him. But he was in no win situation as if he did say anything to refute then AS accusations would be thrown at him either way.

It would be nice if Boris was held to account at the same time for actually saying anti-semitic stuff. Demonstrates again that it was a disgusting political smear. See the below.

 

aolstudios

Members
Nov 30, 2011
3,622
brighton
This is what Chris Williamson said that got him in trouble

“We’ve done more to address the scourge of anti-Semitism than any political party. The party that has done more to stand up to racism is now being demonised as a racist, bigoted party. “I have got to say I think our party’s response has been partly responsible for that because in my opinion… we’ve backed off far too much, we have given too much ground, we’ve been too apologetic… “We’ve done more to actually address the scourge of antisemitism than any other political party. Any other political party. And yet we are being traduced.”

Corbyn was too nice of a guy to call out the bullsh*t being thrown at him. But he was in no win situation as if he did say anything to refute then AS accusations would be thrown at him either way.

It would be nice if Boris was held to account at the same time for actually saying anti-semitic stuff. Demonstrates again that it was a disgusting political smear. See the below.

The same Chris Williamson who now fronts a show on Iranian state TV. Featuring nothing but obsessive tirades against Jews?
He's absolutely f***ing pickled in antisemitism
 

borat

Members
Jul 16, 2003
273
The same Chris Williamson who now fronts a show on Iranian state TV. Featuring nothing but obsessive tirades against Jews?
He's absolutely f***ing pickled in antisemitism
There you go again - another strawman. Rather than dispute the point and what happened at the time, you deflect with something that happened subsequently. In any case Williamson was suspended for the comments I highlighted so I guess you will commend Corbyn for that.

If you want to play guilt by association, lets look at how Starmer and the Tories cosy up to Israel an apartheid state which has an extreme right wing government. You good with that?
 

aolstudios

Members
Nov 30, 2011
3,622
brighton
There you go again - another strawman. Rather than dispute the point and what happened at the time, you deflect with something that happened subsequently. In any case Williamson was suspended for the comments I highlighted so I guess you will commend Corbyn for that.

If you want to play guilt by association, lets look at how Starmer and the Tories cosy up to Israel an apartheid state which has an extreme right wing government. You good with that?
No need for guilt by association. Magic Grandpa himself hosted a series of similarly obsessively antisemitic programmes on the same Iranian government run channel. At a time when it was proscribed by UK govt for broadcasting a confession obtained by torture of a dual national journalist.
Your idols are as dirty, racist & disgusting as it gets.
As, I'd wager, are you
 
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Nobby Cybergoat

Members
Jul 19, 2021
4,255
There you go again - another strawman. Rather than dispute the point and what happened at the time, you deflect with something that happened subsequently. In any case Williamson was suspended for the comments I highlighted so I guess you will commend Corbyn for that.

If you want to play guilt by association, lets look at how Starmer and the Tories cosy up to Israel an apartheid state which has an extreme right wing government. You good with that?
The thing is, Corbyn or Williamson might have been unfairly tainted. I'm one of the 99% of people who don't go on labour forums or watch Iranian TV, so I don't actually know.

So surely the point here is that politics works on perception. I'm guessing you're contending that if we conducted a forensic court style analysis that Corbyn etc would be exonerated. Maybe, but that isn't what is going to happen. Corbyn and all the senior Labour people have been found guilty by the court of public opinion and that's why they were routed by an obviously poor opponent at the last election.

Now this may or may not be brutally unfair. But there's a bigger picture and that bigger picture is that those on the left, of which I count myself, now have two choices. Unite behind Starmer or try to bring him down in the hope of installing a socialist labour leader and Prime Minister.

I'm getting behind Starmer despite huge misgivings on his Brexit stance and some other matters. I'd rather some of what I want than nothing at all.

Finally, there was a moment when there was a real possibility JC could have done it. But the world has changed since Russia invaded Ukraine. UK public support for the stance that Corbyn takes on this is miniscule. He's not the man for these times. Starmer is.
 

borat

Members
Jul 16, 2003
273
The thing is, Corbyn or Williamson might have been unfairly tainted. I'm one of the 99% of people who don't go on labour forums or watch Iranian TV, so I don't actually know.

So surely the point here is that politics works on perception. I'm guessing you're contending that if we conducted a forensic court style analysis that Corbyn etc would be exonerated. Maybe, but that isn't what is going to happen. Corbyn and all the senior Labour people have been found guilty by the court of public opinion and that's why they were routed by an obviously poor opponent at the last election.

Now this may or may not be brutally unfair. But there's a bigger picture and that bigger picture is that those on the left, of which I count myself, now have two choices. Unite behind Starmer or try to bring him down in the hope of installing a socialist labour leader and Prime Minister.

I'm getting behind Starmer despite huge misgivings on his Brexit stance and some other matters. I'd rather some of what I want than nothing at all.

Finally, there was a moment when there was a real possibility JC could have done it. But the world has changed since Russia invaded Ukraine. UK public support for the stance that Corbyn takes on this is miniscule. He's not the man for these times. Starmer is.
You're correct on the perception point. The press, the Labour right, domestic and foreign lobby groups went to town on Corbyn as he threatened their interests.

On the home front - the possibility of nationalisation of water or trains, increasing higher taxes on big business or on the foreign affairs front - criticising/not arming or supporting Saudi Arabia or Israel is not seen as acceptable. The AS smears were a vehicle to bring Corbyn and the left down despite the party having broadly popular policies amongst the electorate.

So what we are left with is two parties that will maintain the status quo and will see the wealth gap ever increasing - pro war, pro big business, pro NHS privatisation (by stealth).

Starmer may or may not be an improvement on the current shower of shit in charge but from a personal perspective he has shown to be slippery, and utterly dishonest.
 

Nobby Cybergoat

Members
Jul 19, 2021
4,255
You're correct on the perception point. The press, the Labour right, domestic and foreign lobby groups went to town on Corbyn as he threatened their interests.

On the home front - the possibility of nationalisation of water or trains, increasing higher taxes on big business or on the foreign affairs front - criticising/not arming or supporting Saudi Arabia or Israel is not seen as acceptable. The AS smears were a vehicle to bring Corbyn and the left down despite the party having broadly popular policies amongst the electorate.

So what we are left with is two parties that will maintain the status quo and will see the wealth gap ever increasing - pro war, pro big business, pro NHS privatisation (by stealth).

Starmer may or may not be an improvement on the current shower of shit in charge but from a personal perspective he has shown to be slippery, and utterly dishonest.
Or isn't there a third possibility that Starmer is a politician doing politics quite well. As you've said, a labour leader who isn't an acceptable Blair type faces almost insurmountable challenges. The net result is permanent tory rule.

If he comes out now and stands on a fire engine in a town square in favour of striking workers and nationalising everything, Tory Central Office and their press apparatus finally have an attack line which might stick and might yet keep them in. Same with harping on about rejoining the single market. It can do him no good electorally.

Why don't you get behind Starmer? You might be pleasantly surprised that you get more of what you want than you think when he gets into office.
 

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
Oct 8, 2003
42,848
Faversham
Thousands of them joined the labour party from the swp & similar in 2015. Hence the recent shitshow. Corbyn's two closest advisors had been communists. Both of whom had expressed admiration for Stalin & Putin
And ironically from the tories, with the same objective, to get Corbyn elected as labour leader.

This artificial tumescence is the reason for the proud claim of sentimental old labour fools that, under Corbyn, the labour party was the 'biggest' membership party in the world. Talk about delusional.

I am not so bothered by 'had been' communists (albeit has-been communists are a different matter). My dad was a communist for 5 minutes after Mosely drove an armoured vehicle down Tooley Street, where he lived.
Thousands of them joined the labour party from the swp & similar in 2015. Hence the recent shitshow. Corbyn's two closest advisors had been communists. Both of whom had expressed admiration for Stalin & Putin
ps - also I meant now, in labour. Campaigning with impact. Plenty of the executive are mad lefties, but I suspect Starmer will do with the executive what Blair did.
 

borat

Members
Jul 16, 2003
273
Or isn't there a third possibility that Starmer is a politician doing politics quite well. As you've said, a labour leader who isn't an acceptable Blair type faces almost insurmountable challenges. The net result is permanent tory rule.

If he comes out now and stands on a fire engine in a town square in favour of striking workers and nationalising everything, Tory Central Office and their press apparatus finally have an attack line which might stick and might yet keep them in. Same with harping on about rejoining the single market. It can do him no good electorally.

Why don't you get behind Starmer? You might be pleasantly surprised that you get more of what you want than you think when he gets into office.
I agree that he is doing some things very well from a pure politics /electoral perspective - some of that strategy is being led by good friend of Jeffrey Esptein, Peter Mandelson.

What I don't like is the fact that he has

Untrustworthy - Reneged on his leadership election pledges
Anti-democratic - he is preventing left wing candidates from running in local elections. Even the Tory party arent doing that.
Weaponised anti-semitism for political purposes even so far as to declare himself a Zionist.
Undermined Corbyn before and during the election
Has/is purged the party of left wing members (including 60 Jews)
Pledges unwavering support to Israel - an apartheid state that is killing and subjugating Palestinians. Israel last week bombed civilian buildings in Syria just after the terrible earthquake.
Is silent on Saudi Arabia who are committing war crimes in Yemen. Yemen has 23 million people in need of humanitarian assistance but our weapon sales are more important
Along with Wes Streeting ( who received funds from US healthcare provider) has talked about increasing privatisation of the increase ''to help out'' the NHS.
Working people - Has shown little to no solidarity during the strikes.

If he gets into power (likely) I dont have your confidence that he will do anything substantial. He will want to stay in power so why once in will he risk upset big corps, foreign states, media owners, the wealthy etc.
 

Nobby Cybergoat

Members
Jul 19, 2021
4,255
I agree that he is doing some things very well from a pure politics /electoral perspective - some of that strategy is being led by good friend of Jeffrey Esptein, Peter Mandelson.

What I don't like is the fact that he has

Untrustworthy - Reneged on his leadership election pledges
Anti-democratic - he is preventing left wing candidates from running in local elections. Even the Tory party arent doing that.
Weaponised anti-semitism for political purposes even so far as to declare himself a Zionist.
Undermined Corbyn before and during the election
Has/is purged the party of left wing members (including 60 Jews)
Pledges unwavering support to Israel - an apartheid state that is killing and subjugating Palestinians. Israel last week bombed civilian buildings in Syria just after the terrible earthquake.
Is silent on Saudi Arabia who are committing war crimes in Yemen. Yemen has 23 million people in need of humanitarian assistance but our weapon sales are more important
Along with Wes Streeting ( who received funds from US healthcare provider) has talked about increasing privatisation of the increase ''to help out'' the NHS.
Working people - Has shown little to no solidarity during the strikes.

If he gets into power (likely) I dont have your confidence that he will do anything substantial. He will want to stay in power so why once in will he risk upset big corps, foreign states, media owners, the wealthy etc.
I believe he'll stay in power by implementing popular policies. State owned energy for example, windfall taxes and almost certainly more common ground with Europe.

But he can't really say much on that that now. Same as he can't be seen to be siding with Palestine, Yemen etc and can't wade in to culture war conversations about controversial statues or sustainable transport. No matter how much socialist voters want him to. Message discipline is the key to ending seemingly permanent tory rule

Starmer will also be aware that fixing the appalling state of the public services is at least a 10 year job. For that a majority of 50 or something isn't enough. The tories would be back next time.
 

borat

Members
Jul 16, 2003
273
I believe he'll stay in power by implementing popular policies. State owned energy for example, windfall taxes and almost certainly more common ground with Europe.

But he can't really say much on that that now. Same as he can't be seen to be siding with Palestine, Yemen etc and can't wade in to culture war conversations about controversial statues or sustainable transport. No matter how much socialist voters want him to. Message discipline is the key to ending seemingly permanent tory rule

Starmer will also be aware that fixing the appalling state of the public services is at least a 10 year job. For that a majority of 50 or something isn't enough. The tories would be back next time.
The Labour members 'believed' that he would stick to his policies and unite the party once elected as Labour leader and that proved a mistake.

Only time will tell but I dont believe based on the evidence we have that he is faking a right wing / neo-liberal outlook only to get elected and then do an about turn and upset the status quo.

Prob not much more to be said on this but here is a (facetious) article that sums up mine (and others) feeling on Starmer

 

Weststander

Members
Aug 25, 2011
57,116
Withdean area
Thousands of them joined the labour party from the swp & similar in 2015. Hence the recent shitshow. Corbyn's two closest advisors had been communists. Both of whom had expressed admiration for Stalin & Putin
That really did happen, Brighton and Hove was a microcosm of it.

Prominent folk from hard left parties joined the LP, then immediately set about trying to oust and intimidate the likes of Peter Kyle.
 

Mellor 3 Ward 4

Members
Jul 27, 2004
9,286
saaf of the water
The Labour members 'believed' that he would stick to his policies and unite the party once elected as Labour leader and that proved a mistake.

Only time will tell but I dont believe based on the evidence we have that he is faking a right wing / neo-liberal outlook only to get elected and then do an about turn and upset the status quo.

Prob not much more to be said on this but here is a (facetious) article that sums up mine (and others) feeling on Starmer

I guess you never want to see another Labour Govt, even if it means compromise?
 

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