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[Politics] Labour has suspended former leader Jeremy Corbyn







jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,337
Absolutely.
The opposite of al Jazeera
Well considering the person featured prominently in the documentary, I know has been repeatedly racist towards the travelling community, and still remains within the party, but the right wing aren't interested in investigating it, it has some substance. It appears that you only believe racism matters when it is directed at one group. The downplaying on Anti-Semitism I don't agree with, but neither do I agree with the downplaying of other racism which is what the party chooses to do.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,385
Goldstone
Yeah but we're dinosaurs.
The fact we can't imagine a world where..... is also a natural part of ageing.
Nah, I couldn't imagine it when I was younger either, and nothing has changed.

What is stopping the government from increasing the level of taxation on company profits to pay their costs?
Nothing, but a lot of those companies will then fail or move abroad where they pay less tax.

We've had 15 years of cost cutting - at some point you have to accept their is a cost to running the country and taxes need to cover that cost.
Why does that have to be called socialism?
It doesn't need to be called socialism. We currently have the tories and we'll hopefully go labour next time, who will move us a little left. Helping the poor a bit more doesn't suddenly become socialism. Many labour voters aren't socialists. But some people are, and I don't believe socialism can work in our country.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,385
Goldstone
Take it from someone who is 25-30 thats not the case.
Take it from someone with more experience than you, that it typically is the case.
 






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,385
Goldstone
The majority of 25-30 are not now turning right wing, over 30 I don't know, but we live in very different circumstances from when I expect you were growing up.
I'm not expecting you to suddenly turn right wing, I just don't think the majority of you will vote for Socialism in 30/40 year's time.
 


jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,337
I'm not expecting you to suddenly turn right wing, I just don't think the majority of you will vote for Socialism in 30/40 year's time.
Yeah but I don't think yours and my definition of socialism line up. I'm not talking seizure of the means of production, I'm talking about Energy, Rail, Telecoms under public ownership with plenty of room for small business and better social responsibility from our law makers. Just branding anyone who wants that as socialist is bizarre.
 


amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,353
Take it from someone who is 25-30 thats not the case.
I never said everyone. Fact of life that the more successful a young person becomes the less likely they will retain left wing views. Can then go full circle because many of the mega rich return to left wing views.
 




jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,337
I never said everyone. Fact of life that the more successful a young person becomes the less likely they will retain left wing views. Can then go full circle because many of the mega rich return to left wing views.
I think here lies the problem, being successful now does not necessarily line up with being successful fiscally. The wealth gap is too big that many 20 somethings are not earning enough for a decent living so are retaining left wing views.
 


Jim in the West

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 13, 2003
4,673
Way out West
The majority of 25-30 are not now turning right wing, over 30 I don't know, but we live in very different circumstances from when I expect you were growing up.
There's quite a lot of recent research showing that the age when one starts to vote Tory is getting later and later. I read somewhere that, pre the 2017 General Election, the median age at which you became more likely to vote Tory was 34. At the 2019 GE it was 51. I think it's now around 55. The Tories now really only appeal to the old!
 


BenGarfield

Active member
Feb 22, 2019
317
crawley
It also seems to be the case for our parents generation. That's no guarantee of the future, but socialism doesn't really work unless you have a large source of income from the government to pay for everyone.



Yes I agree that they'll need to meet the needs of the majority. But I can't imagine a socialist government ever being able to provide that, because people don't want to put in the extra graft when they're taxed to death.
The UK government finances are not like a household - the government can spend as much as it likes within the actual (non-monetary) resources availalble within the country. Taxes do not fund government expenditure they perform other functions within the economy. If you disagree - please cite your evidence and I will forward it to the researchers at the University of London who have shown the opposite to be the case, and they will be able to amend their ground breaking paper on "An accountancy model of the British Exchequer".
 




Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
11,087
Nah, I couldn't imagine it when I was younger either, and nothing has changed.


Nothing, but a lot of those companies will then fail or move abroad where they pay less tax.


It doesn't need to be called socialism. We currently have the tories and we'll hopefully go labour next time, who will move us a little left. Helping the poor a bit more doesn't suddenly become socialism. Many labour voters aren't socialists. But some people are, and I don't believe socialism can work in our country.
This is an area which needs to be explored more thoroughly.
Not just dismissed as being inevitable.

If companies make revenue in a country, they need to be taxed on the profits generated within that country.
The idea that these companies won't want to participate in our market, because they would have to pay tax on the money they make, is far-fetched.
 


Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
11,087
I think here lies the problem, being successful now does not necessarily line up with being successful fiscally. The wealth gap is too big that many 20 somethings are not earning enough for a decent living so are retaining left wing views.
Indeed
Many of those who graduate to the traditionally successful careers will find themselves with significant student debt, which will impact their ability to purchase property.
The buoyancy of the property market over the last 30 years is a major factor in my generations belief that all is well with the economy.
And that old -school Centrist politics is "Grown up" policies.

The coming generation don't share this view.
They will share it even less when their parent's generation have signed away their inheritance, to pay for residential care in their old age.
 






BBassic

I changed this.
Jul 28, 2011
12,556
Yeah but I don't think yours and my definition of socialism line up. I'm not talking seizure of the means of production, I'm talking about Energy, Rail, Telecoms under public ownership with plenty of room for small business and better social responsibility from our law makers. Just branding anyone who wants that as socialist is bizarre.
Quite.

I'm rapidly approaching my forties and still happily left leaning. My grandfather remained a staunch leftie until the day he died. I like to believe I'll take after him and do the same.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,385
Goldstone
Yeah but I don't think yours and my definition of socialism line up. I'm not talking seizure of the means of production, I'm talking about Energy, Rail, Telecoms under public ownership with plenty of room for small business and better social responsibility from our law makers. Just branding anyone who wants that as socialist is bizarre.
What? Where did I say that wanting those things was socialism? I said Corbyn was a socialist and that I don't think we'll be a majority socialist country. I didn't make any reference to the things you mention.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,285
The Fatherland
Sure, and politics may move to the left a bit, who knows, but the point is that younger people tend to be further to the left, and those same people tend to move a bit to the right as they get older. I'm not expecting socialism to become the dominant force in British politics any time soon.
I am the exact opposite. I also know plenty of “older” people who are left wing and more socially minded.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,385
Goldstone
Taxes do not fund government expenditure they perform other functions within the economy.
What? What other functions do they perform?

If you disagree - please cite your evidence and I will forward it to the researchers at the University of London who have shown the opposite to be the case, and they will be able to amend their ground breaking paper on "An accountancy model of the British Exchequer".
"The Government needs to raise money through taxation to deliver their spending priorities and to fund key public services such as schools, the NHS and the armed forces. Taxes may apply to individuals or businesses or be added to the price of goods and services we buy (VAT)."

There you go, please forward that. It's from
 




borat

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2003
513
Qatari state, Al Jazeera's 'Labour files'?
Impeccable source there. Thoroughly unbiased too 😂
Youre criticising the source and ignoring the black Labour Party members testimony and leaked conversations revealed. Can see how much you care about racism!
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,471
This is an area which needs to be explored more thoroughly.
Not just dismissed as being inevitable.

If companies make revenue in a country, they need to be taxed on the profits generated within that country.
The idea that these companies won't want to participate in our market, because they would have to pay tax on the money they make, is far-fetched.
not as simple as that. for a start revenue does not mean profit. we tend to see profits and applied tax where the production or value creation occurs, which is not necessaily in the country of sale. the UK benefits from this greatly, many multinationals importing profits earned abroad. they could as easily rearrange revenue to be "seen" and taxed elsewhere. in some cases companies do move to affect tax benefit, Shell left Netherlands due to a additional tax, an oil explorer Harbour is leaving UK operations due to taxes. if tax means return on investment fails to meet some target, companies will reduce or close operations.
 


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