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[Football] How to fix VAR ?



FindonFan

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2014
2,424
Before the introduction of DRS and neutral umpires there were some shocking decisions against touring sides in India and Pakistan (Javid Miandad was never out LBW at home) from local umpires.

Back to VAR, it seems to have lead to some refs/linos abdicating responsibility for tricky decisions thinking "VAR will sort it out". Couple that with the perfectly natural desire not to be shown to be wrong and officials (whether on field or at Stockley) have a subconscious bias against making a contradictory ruling or recommendation.

How to improve it ?
Make ALL decisions the Referee's call. If he isn't sure of a goal or offside then ask VAR to check. If he misses a foul or red card, so what ? Might stop players going down looking for a penalty in the hope that "VAR might give it; there's no sanction if a player does this and is thought to have simulated.
Complete separation of PGMOL on-field officials and VAR; maybe have the VAR officials drawn from overseas refs and ex players ?
Offside, get rid of the lines and make it so a player has to be clearly in front. Not just a toe or eyebrow, the whole player. If VAR cannot say he's gaining an advantage by being in front, then on-field decision stands.
Referees have to give a post match interview like managers do.
The improvements recommend above by @happypig make a lot of sense because no rules would need to be altered whether the game is covered or not by VAR.
 

Falmer Flutter ©

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2004
905
Petts Wood
They're not though are they? The WHOLE of the ball has to cross the line before it's a goal (or out of play). And as much as we complain about the offsides we can admit that after lengthy and detailed analysis it can be proved that yes, his toenail was a fraction offside. (Although most of us think the trade-off with the reduction in spontaneity isn't worth it). Those decisions are all matter-of fact, binary, yes/no decisions. The subjective ones are the ones such as 'was that a penalty?' or 'was that a red card?' are the ones VAR shouldn't be involved with.

(Apart from that I agree with you)
No we can't, FFS! You think some bloke guessing where to draw lines on a blurry freeze-frame with no real idea when the ball is exactly in motion is proving this? Oh and it takes three minutes for this charade to play out. Because this is the system we currently have.
 

stewart12

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2019
1,434
-Use it on an appeals basis. Each team gets a set amount of appeals per game and a set amount of time to decide on whether they're making the appeal or not, as they do in cricket

-Much more transparency and let audiences in on the decision making as they do in cricket, rugby etc
 

haardman

Member
Jul 29, 2005
95
For offsides, make the lines they use much thicker. If the two lines overlap, not a clear and obvious error and stick with the on field decision.
This used to be my preferred solution for offside however since we've seen several decisions with lines drawn in the wrong place or wrong frame frozen I think that no lines and the 30 second rule is probably a better experience for all involved. If they can't tell by watching the replays within that time then it's "umpire's call" and the onfield decision stands. It also doesn't change the current laws and therefore won't affect officiating in the football pyramid.

For other offences I'd allow the VAR to be involved in any serious infringement/mistake - I don't see why only certain things qualify for VAR involvement. If the ref has missed something then the ref has missed something - they need to be informed and be given the chance to go to the monitor at the next opportunity.
Alternatively re-referee every game afterwards with a panel and penalise simulation/fouls/situations that were missed at the time. I don't see why a multi-billion pound industry cannot afford such a solution.

As an aside the handball rule needs looking at too. I'd discuss this separately to VAR as I don't classify it as a VAR issue - it's a rules issue.
 

American Seagle

Well-known member
Jun 14, 2022
615
Changing VAR won't accomplish anything. The biggest problem is not the technology or how it is used, it is the people using it. Incompetent poorly skilled people using even the best tech will do bad things.
Step one needs to be to educate and train the EPL referees to a much higher standard. They need to be more consistent and more accurate. That way they will command more respect and VAR would actually be useful.
 


Kosh

'The' Yaztromo
This discussion really has generated some interesting ideas, takes snd suggestions… but like so many, it’ll simply disappear into the ether and nothing will be done and nothing will change… and that, this time around, is a crying shame, especially as it’s crystal clear the majority are frustrated at best.

Yet..

We carry on, awaiting the next farce and this time it could well be us - again !!

It’d be great to upload this entire thread direct to the pillock’s at Stockley Park 😂
 

Seasider78

Well-known member
Nov 14, 2004
5,912
Unless you are a Sheffield United fan the goal line technology has been a success as the decision is not subjective. VAR is a flawed concept as it relies on the same people who made inconsistent decisions on the pitch to make consistent ones off it and we wonder why we get the same result.

Referees should be the supporting cast but now they are the lead actors and clearly loving the limelight if how many of them now on TV is anything to go by.

I actually think it’s made referees and assistant referees lazy and they no longer make decisive on field decisions knowing a ten minute review in stockley park and it’s no longer them accountable.

Just needs binning off
 

Krafty

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2023
1,449
You don't because you/we all accepted that the tech was able to determine when the ball was kicked, it can't.
Yes, it can. The world cup ball had a sensor (sending data 500 times per second) which allowed for a more precise detection of when the ball was kicked compared to optical tracking.
All it showed was at the exact moment the video stopped xyz where in that position on the pitch, again not actually fulfilling the laws of the ball that state being level is not offside. No one will ever be level again when VAR is used.
What is "level"? How far does the attacker have to be, ahead of the defender, in order to be offside?
If they are precisely level, that's fine, they are onside. But if they are ahead of the second-last opponent (even if it is only milimetres) then they are offside. If this isn't the rule, then it should be changed, because now there is the technology which can precisely detect offsides.
 
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Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
11,291
Cumbria
Imagine the Aguero goal with VAR involvement.
Imagine getting a last minute winner to send your team through to the Champions League semi-final. And not just that - but your hat-trick goal to boot. Imagine the whole stadium going mad - the manager going crazy, fans and players celebrating wildly. Imagine your opponents completely deflated, and sunk to the ground knowing that they have lost an amazing game.

Then imagine about a minute later someone saying 'hang on, there might just have been something no-one spotted, no player appealed for - but we think we can find something to ruin this story....'



VAR irrevocably changed football for me at that moment - for the worse. Not because I'm a fan of either side - but because it ruined the pure thing that has kept football's heart beating for over a century.
 

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Sep 15, 2004
18,438
Hurst Green
The world cup ball had a sensor (sending data 500 times per second) which allowed for a more precise detection of when the ball was kicked compared to optical tracking.

What is "level"? How far does the attacker have to be, ahead of the defender, in order to be offside?
If they are precisely level, that's fine, they are onside. But if they are ahead of the last defender (even if it is only milimetres) then they are offside. If this isn't the rule, then it should be changed, because now there is technology that can accurately detect offsides.
Can't change the law it applies to ALL football played everywhere in the World.

The technology certainly isn't there. When exactly is a ball kicked. First touch or as it leaves contact? Define please.

Can't measure one end then measure differently the other
 

Krafty

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2023
1,449
The technology certainly isn't there. When exactly is a ball kicked. First touch or as it leaves contact? Define please.
The technology is there. The ball is kicked with the first touch.

Please define what "level" means. When is a player "level" and when are they not?

EDIT: Semi-automatic offside technology has already been used in the Champions League and Serie A.
 
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Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
7,006
Vilamoura, Portugal
All of the below:

- Copy the system used in rugby exactly. Full transparency, mic’d up refs, decisions broadcast to the home audience and live attendees in real time.

- Incorporate automated offsides.

- Complete overhaul of training and selection of ‘elite’ referees, including international recruitment and dispersing of cliques. This will help eliminate power dynamics between senior referees and juniors who daren’t “make their mentor look silly” or protect their mates.


The big one for me was how yesterday’s pairing of Salisbury and Attwell were allowed to work together after the debacle last season at Spurs. Absolute sheer incompetence.
PGMOL will never agree to the useless Salisbury and the equally useless Attwell not working together because it would be admitting that neither is good enough and, thus, they are not good enough squared when paired together. The only decision of this type that PGMOL has made is that the ref in the Luverpool Spurs match will not ref Liverpool anymore and that decision did not involve any admission of incompetence but was blamed bad communication protocol.
Any path forward must include the employment of better referees.
 
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Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
7,006
Vilamoura, Portugal
Beat me to it. Only use to get ref to review clear and obvious errors. If it can't be done in 30 seconds it's clearly not obvious :shrug:
What is a clear and obvious error? They are supposed to be using that criterion for penalty decisions but they are demonstrably not able to do so consistently. If there had been a competent ref and VAR in place of the two clowns last night would they have got the "correct" decisions?
 

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Sep 15, 2004
18,438
Hurst Green
The technology is there. The ball is kicked with the first touch.

Please define what "level" means. When is a player "level" and when are they not?

EDIT: Semi-automatic offside technology has already been used in the Champions League and Serie A.
Level is in line like it has always been since I started watching f***ing football in 1976.

I'll add there is a time between contact and the ball leaving the boot, how bloody far do we go?

Does it look offside? YES or f***ing NO. Simple move on, no lines ,no cup of tea, chewing tobacco, by the naked eye at the normal speed.
 
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jcdenton08

Enemy of the People
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 17, 2008
10,257
PGMOL will never agree to the useless Salisbury and the equally useless Attwell not working together because it would be admitting that neither is good enough and, thus, they are not good enough squared when paired together. The only decision of this type that PGMOL has made is that the ref in the Luverpool Spurs match will not ref Liverpool anymore and that decision did not involve any admission of incompetence but was blamed bad communication protocol.
Any path forward must include the employment of better referees.
Probably the first time I’ve agreed with you.
 

Kosh

'The' Yaztromo
More fannying about just gone on in the Lazio Celtic match … absolutely ridiculous:

IMG_1439.png
 

Krafty

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2023
1,449
Does it look offside? YES or f***ing NO. Simple move on, no lines ,no cup of tea, chewing tobacco, by the naked eye at the normal speed.
Understood. But, I still think the introduction of semi-automated offside technology would be better. Agree to disagree.
 

Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
7,006
Vilamoura, Portugal
This.

Pull back the amount of usage massively. Give the referees back control of the game - only take it back temporarily when it's an absolute howler they have missed.

Marginal calls on fouls, yellow or red etc should stay with the referee onfield unless the referee him/herself requests a further look via screen - and still, final decision is the refs and the refs only.

Most games shouldn't have any VAR involvement at all.

"Clear and obvious errors", the thing it was MEANT to be brought in for.
Let's consider last season's Tottenham v Brighton match
1. Was disallowing Mitoma's goal for handball a clear and obvious error?
2. Was allowing the other goal that VAR subsequently disallowed for Mac Ali handball a clear and obvious error?
3. Was not giving a penalty to Mitoma a clear and obvious error?
4. Was not giving a penalty to Dunk a clear and obvious error?

IMO, the answers are yes, no, yes, yes.
so I would expect VAR to highlight 1, 3 and 4 to the referee and recommend changing those three decisions.
 


PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Sep 15, 2004
18,438
Hurst Green
Understood. But, I still think the introduction of semi-automated offside technology would be better. Agree to disagree.
Nope not needed ever the game is played by humans not f***ing computers.

Just like these idiots that play football manager they know duck all about football.

Leave technology out of the game apert from goal line.
 

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Sep 15, 2004
18,438
Hurst Green

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