[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[borat]

Interesting commentary/interview highlighting the deep ties between Israel and both our leadership and media.

Covers how Israel is for the first time starting to lose its control of the narrative mainly due to the rise of social media - Has given more scope for the stream propaganda to be refuted more easily. Downside is that said propaganda can be disseminated more easily.

 

[Zeberdi]

They got little say in the matter. Most have to join the IDF

Only for 18-24 months.

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents dying

I’m not sure how you think the process of radicalisation works - and it’s not Gazan children parachuting into Israel or firing rockets but it is them being killed in the 1000s, being maimed or buried under rubble so what international rules of law are you suggesting they abide by?

Of course nobody has to be a ‘terrorist‘ but Palestinian kids growing up under occupation and having none of the freedoms you or I have nor even their very basic needs met much of the time, do not see themselves as ‘terrorists’ but when throwing stones or Molotov cocktail bottles they are fighting what they see as the ‘monster’ - a brutal occupying force - the collective punishments (often deadly) meted out on Palestinians living in the OPT in response to any kids who show resistance by throwing stones would only confirm that they have no alternative but to fight back even more. These kids in the OPT are living under conditions where they are at risk daily of being further radicalised because of the random killings, human rights abuses and settler violence that they are subject to on a daily basis growing up. Yes, Israeli kids lose family members to the conflict but compared to Palestinian deaths since 2008, the number is very small and they are not children

Since 2008 ( excluding the current war) 306 Israel’s have died and 6,543 Palestinians

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

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www.ochaopt.org

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

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www.ochaopt.org

Jewish kids are largely inoculated from the politics of what goes on in the OPT and the majority face none of the triggers in their daily lives that might otherwise radicalise them but that doesn’t stop their thinking being largely the product of the Israeli propaganda machine from cradle to grave (see for example the video @borat posted above)

The majority of young Israelis have never even meet Palestinians growing up and most are certainly are not engaged with the issues of Occupation in the same way Palestinian children are. Where Israel youth/kids are engaged more directly in the conflict, for example growing up in illegal settlements, they are just as likely to form radicalised views as Palestinian kids and are just as likely as them to be the perpetrators of violence.

It requires both the young Palestinians and Israelis to bring in change and recent trends suggest that on both sides there is hope for peace building but their leaders do not listen.

How Do Israeli and Palestinian Youth View the Prospects for Peace?

Amid this year’s rising tide of violence between Israelis and Palestinians, a new poll released last week by Khalil Shikaki and Dahlia Scheindlin brings more sobering news. In the study, pollsters found that in Israel, for the first time, support for a nondemocratic regime (unequal rights...

www.usip.org

As I have said many times, the current conflict between Hamas and the Netanyahu government testifies to how extremist ideologies are the driving forces on BOTH sides behind the perpetuating violence.

 

[Albion my Albion]

That is not true. Jewish Israeli kids are not inoculated against the politics. How can you even make that judgement. Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.

 

[Bakero]

That is not true. Jewish Israeli kids are not inoculated against the politics. How can you even make that judgement. Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.

We're back to calling the Jewish bloke anti-Semitic, I see.

 

[Zeberdi]

That is not true. Jewish Israeli kids are not inoculated against the politics. How can you even make that judgement. Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.

Before accusing me of anti-semitism, how about you doing some background research. It is not any ’anti-semitic prejudice’ of mine ‘truly showing’ in our exchanges but your uninformed opinions and lack of knowledge surrounding the issues:

“A recent 2020 study at Tel Aviv University found that Palestine and Palestinians are not mentioned in Israeli school textbooks, rendering Palestinians invisible to them. Consequently, many Israeli children do not learn the history of Palestine, and they learn to view Palestinians as threats rather than neighbors.”

Teaching Palestine in Israeli Schools | Promised Land Museum

Miko Peled discusses how US, Israeli & Palestinian school curricula creates divisions among Israelis & Palestinians and validates ethnic cleansing.

promisedlandmuseum.org

Worse than that, Israeli children are subject to State propaganda that does inoculate them from the realities of the brutality of the Occupation

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190726-how-israel-teaches-its-children-to-hate/

EDITED [ I can’t be ar£ed ]

I’ll just refer you to the penultimate paragraph in one of my earlier posts

[News] - Hamas attacks Israel - 'We are at war'

There is a question that has puzzled me for many, many years. Antisemitism (I know a word, an act, a mindset, certainly not a question). As many others have stated in this thread, the Jews have been the target of hatred, genocide, war crimes, prejudice etc etc, for many centuries across Europe...

www.northstandchat.com

 

[borat]

Before accusing me of anti-semitism, how about you doing some background research. It is not any ’anti-semitic prejudice’ of mine ‘truly showing’ in our exchanges but your uninformed opinions and lack of knowledge surrounding the issues:

“A recent 2020 study at Tel Aviv University found that Palestine and Palestinians are not mentioned in Israeli school textbooks, rendering Palestinians invisible to them. Consequently, many Israeli children do not learn the history of Palestine, and they learn to view Palestinians as threats rather than neighbors.”

Teaching Palestine in Israeli Schools | Promised Land Museum

Miko Peled discusses how US, Israeli & Palestinian school curricula creates divisions among Israelis & Palestinians and validates ethnic cleansing.

promisedlandmuseum.org

Worse than that, Israeli children are subject to State propaganda that does inoculate them from the realities of the brutality of the Occupation

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190726-how-israel-teaches-its-children-to-hate/

EDITED [ I can’t be ar£ed ]

Not speaking for Zeberdi as he will have his own perspective on this but for me, the weaponisation of anti-semitism within UK/US politics is one of the most disgusting and cynical things to witness in the last few years. Carried out by Tories and the Labour Right in the UK to silence / expel those that have the temerity to question the awful actions of the Israeli state. The same tactic is used by Republicans and Christian Zionists in the US to silence dissent.

If Jews question Israels occupation I have seen them termed the "wrong type of Jew", "not Jewish" or 'Kapos'

Starmer has used it to rid the party of dissenting voices including many left wing Jews.

UK Labour Party accused of discrimination over expulsion of Jewish members

Jewish members of the Labour Party are almost 13 times more likely to be expelled for supporting proscribed left-wing organisations than non-Jewish members, JVL claims

www.middleeasteye.net

The weaponisation tactic is so destructive as it masks genuine anti-semitism that occurs in both the UK and US and more often than not come from the far right.

Good summary here

Weaponizing Antisemitism is Bad for Jews, Israel, and Peace | Contending Modernities

Antisemitism, like other forms of racism and bigotry, should be rejected by appeals to human rights and justice, not through the closure of critical thinking and blind acceptance of official Israeli state policies.

contendingmodernities.nd.edu

 

[Zeberdi]

Not speaking for Zeberdi as he will have his own perspective on this

Agree with all of that - thank you for posting your POV and doing so in such a well thought out way. The fact that false accusations of anti- semitism masks genuine anti-semitism itself is anti-Semitic in its impact - to accuse anyone of anti-semitism is a serious charge more so, when the accusation is lodged without reason at someone who is the direct descendant of Holocaust survivors ( and victims) purely to ‘score points’ on a discussion forum - it’s a charge that any Jewish person would find deeply upsetting .


Edit - From one of @borat’s links posted above- this is the measure and yardstick against which we should judge whether behaviour is anti-semitic- sums it up very well imo:

“Antisemitism, like other forms of racism and bigotry, should be rejected by appeals to human rights and justice, not through the closure of critical thinking and blind acceptance of official Israel State politics.”

 

[Bakero]

Meanwhile in the Times...

 

[Machiavelli]

Not speaking for Zeberdi as he will have his own perspective on this but for me, the weaponisation of anti-semitism within UK/US politics is one of the most disgusting and cynical things to witness in the last few years. Carried out by Tories and the Labour Right in the UK to silence / expel those that have the temerity to question the awful actions of the Israeli state. The same tactic is used by Republicans and Christian Zionists in the US to silence dissent.

If Jews question Israels occupation I have seen them termed the "wrong type of Jew", "not Jewish" or 'Kapos'

Starmer has used it to rid the party of dissenting voices including many left wing Jews.

UK Labour Party accused of discrimination over expulsion of Jewish members

Jewish members of the Labour Party are almost 13 times more likely to be expelled for supporting proscribed left-wing organisations than non-Jewish members, JVL claims

www.middleeasteye.net

The weaponisation tactic is so destructive as it masks genuine anti-semitism that occurs in both the UK and US and more often than not come from the far right.

Good summary here

Weaponizing Antisemitism is Bad for Jews, Israel, and Peace | Contending Modernities

Antisemitism, like other forms of racism and bigotry, should be rejected by appeals to human rights and justice, not through the closure of critical thinking and blind acceptance of official Israeli state policies.

contendingmodernities.nd.edu

Well, I'm of the view that antisemitism has been present in UK politics, although overstated. Labour under Corbyn helped facilitate it by being fundamentally naive. The extent of it hasn't been as prevalent as Islamophobia though. Saying things like this has generated hostility and suggestible accusations in recent years.
It's patently obvious that it's the far right that has perpetrated antisemitism historically, but don't try and claim that the left haven't indulged in it -- then and now. Social democrats accepted social Darwinism in the early 20C, and the far left has been remarkably effective at associating Jews with finance and capitalism.

Beyond all that, a two-state solution is more necessary now than ever.

 

[LamieRobertson]

They got little say in the matter. Most have to join the IDF

Considering the indoctrination that apparently goes on in Gaza then I’m not sure the children there have much choice either

 

[LamieRobertson]

You don't have to take my word about Apartheid take the word of

Amnesty International
Human Rights Watch
Btselem - Israeli Human Rights Group

Or take the former chief of Mossads word for it

Israel imposing apartheid on Palestinians, says former Mossad chief

Tamir Pardo comments, slammed by ruling Likud party, carry weight because of high regard for intelligence agency in Israel

www.theguardian.com

You can bury your head in the sand. That up to you.

It's sad that you weaponise the situation by saying I hate Jews. It shows you are losing the argument when you make shameful smears.

Your only significant contribution to these threads is laughing emojis. I hope you contribute more to those around you in real life. Somehow I doubt it.

Aren’t you being exactly what you are accusing the poster of ..talk about pot calling kettle black

 

[Zeberdi]

@LamieRobertson - Do you think I am anti-semitic for criticising Israel’s response to the Hamas attack - because I have repeatedly been charged with that by those who support what Israel are doing in Gaza?

that was the point of the post you quoted

- and yes, historically it was the far right that generally held anti-semitic POVs but now the right ( not even far right) misappropriate anti-semitism to make false accusations against those that criticise Israel’s policies- to further their own Islamophobic agenda.

 

[LamieRobertson]

@LamieRobertson - Do you think I am anti-semitic for criticising Israel’s response to the Hamas attack - because I have repeatedly been charged with that by those who support what Israel are doing in Gaza?

that was the point of the post you quoted

- and yes, historically it was the far right that generally held anti-semitic POVs but now the right ( not even far right) misappropriate anti-semitism to make false accusations against those that criticise Israel’s policies- to further their own Islamophobic agenda.

Which post are you quoting…as nothing I have posted tonight refers to you at all

 

[Zeberdi]

Which post are you quoting…as nothing I have posted tonight refers to you at all

I wasn’t quoting any post - I was referring to @Borat’s post (that you quoted) highlighting how anti-semitism has been misappropriated by the far right - a post which he wrote in response to the attack on me by @Albion my Albion which I asked if you agree with?

Why avoid my question?

 

[borat]

Aren’t you being exactly what you are accusing the poster of ..talk about pot calling kettle black

Not at all. I'm accusing Israel of carrying out Apartheid and referenced several pieces from major organisations that have said the same. The other other poster who contributed little to these threads accused me of "hating Jews" without basis. Not the same at all...

I criticise Saudi Arabia's role in Yemen and will continue to do so. Doesn't make me islamaphobic etc. Hope that's clear.

 

[wellquickwoody]

That is not true. Jewish Israeli kids are not inoculated against the politics. How can you even make that judgement. Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.

Wow! I assume you know? Or maybe you are an Orthodox Jew with very unpalatable opinions?

 

[LamieRobertson]

I was referring to @Borat’s post highlighting how anti-semitism has been misappropriated by the far right which he wrote in response to the attack on me by @Albion my Albion which I asked if you agree with?

Why avoid my question?

Excuse me but my post was to that poster who didn’t seem to like the tone of the post he referred to…but imo his tone seemed similar….nothing to do with the perceived “attack” by the other poster you quoted.

Mind backing off a bit….i asked which post you were referring to as I had not even referred to you.

My mistake here was to even venture back …I’ve generally stopped even looking at this thread …and I’ll keep those reasons to myself.

Now I’m shoving the thread back on ignore….so if you or anyone else refers to my post/s I won’t even see them to reply to…..I just love that feature

Night

 

[borat]

Well, I'm of the view that antisemitism has been present in UK politics, although overstated. Labour under Corbyn helped facilitate it by being fundamentally naive. The extent of it hasn't been as prevalent as Islamophobia though. Saying things like this has generated hostility and suggestible accusations in recent years.
It's patently obvious that it's the far right that has perpetrated antisemitism historically, but don't try and claim that the left haven't indulged in it -- then and now. Social democrats accepted social Darwinism in the early 20C, and the far left has been remarkably effective at associating Jews with finance and capitalism.

Beyond all that, a two-state solution is more necessary now than ever.

I said, "more often than not" it comes from the right. Of course it's exists on the left as it does in society as a whole. Its existence doesn't mean it wasn't weaponised for political ends against Corbyn and the left.

 

[Zeberdi]

Excuse me but my post was to that poster who didn’t seem to like the tone of the post he referred to…but imo his tone seemed similar….nothing to do with the perceived “attack” by the other poster you quoted.

It wasn’t a ‘perceived’ ‘attack’ - it was an attack -

... Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.

You want Israel to play by international rules while Hamas doesn't agree to those international rules and YOU are giving them license to do that.

in response to providing factual information that the poster didn’t like because it highlighted a weakness in his argument.

 

[Zeberdi]

Medicine Sans Frontiers report their evacuation convoy was attacked by Israeli forces yesterday carrying medical staff

Israeli forces and settlers ramp up violence against Palestinians in West Bank | MSF

MSF doctors struggle to treat victims amid the challenges they are facing as Israeli forces and settlers have intensified attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank. We urges Israeli authorities to show restraint in the West Bank, to put an end to the violence and forced displacements of...

www.msf.org

WHO leads an humanitarian mission into the Al Shifa Hospital - scenes there described as ‘desparate’

WHO leads very high-risk joint humanitarian mission to Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza

Earlier today, a joint UN humanitarian assessment team led by WHO accessed Al-Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza to assess the situation on the ground, conduct a rapid situational analysis, assess medical priorities and establish logistics options for further missions. The team included public...

www.who.int

Meanwhile sources are widely reporting, including Reuters and the Washington Post, that a ‘deal reached’ by Hamas, US and Israel to release an unspecified number of women and children in exchange for a pause in the fighting but The Whitehouse denies any deal has been reached - the fog of war continues

US, Israel, Hamas reach tentative deal to free dozens of hostages

All parties will freeze combat operations for at least five days while "50 or more" women and children hostages are released in small groups.

www.jpost.com

It seems that a deal is indeed in the process of being negotiated by Qatar but nothing has been agreed yet and reports of a deal being reached are exaggerated

Qatar Negotiating Release Of 50 Hostages By Hamas In Exchange For 3-Day Ceasefire, Report Says

Qatari mediators are reportedly working with the U.S. on the deal, which Hamas has agreed to the “general outlines” of, though Israel has not.

www.forbes.com