Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[News] Hamas attacks Israel - 'We are at war'


Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 20, 2022
3,404
There is a question that has puzzled me for many, many years. Antisemitism (I know a word, an act, a mindset, certainly not a question). As many others have stated in this thread, the Jews have been the target of hatred, genocide, war crimes, prejudice etc etc, for many centuries across Europe, and before that in the Middle East.

Now for the question (not loaded in any way, I just do not know the answer), why have they been the target of the above over a very long period?
As a Jewish person, I may be able to offer a slightly different perspective than you might find elsewhere in non-Jewish sources;

You may find this article below helpful background - as it provides an historical emphasis of anti-semitism that is often missed by non-Jewish people in the interpretation of the persecution narratives (ie those that emphasise religion, faith, power, wealth etc as explanations of anti-semitism - which in themselves are often used as anti-semitic tropes) - The article below might help to understand too why the concept of C19th Zionism and the drive for a Jewish State is so entrenched in persecution history and the significance that has for the Jewish identity: The Jewish people have a complicated history but the following are key factors in the persecution narrative:

  • Anti-semitism is concerned more with exclusion politics and expedient scapegoating than it is with religion or wealth - Non-assimilation of ancient-Israelite Jews into cultures and countries of the first (Great) diaspora after the exile from Babylonia, left them always seen as the ‘other’ - a group with a strong sense of cultural identity, monotheism and dietary rules that set Jewish people apart from the pagan traditions that hitherto had prevailed in ancient Egypt and the Hellenic Empire.
  • European anti-semitism which had it’s own specific characteristics and that lead to the Holocaust, was rooted in Nazi-racial theories that targeted all outsiders and those not of ‘Aryan descent’ who would ‘pollute racial purity’ - so Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, Gays, Slavs, any ethnic minority became grounds for discrimination - but the European anti-semitism did not happen in a political vacuum - Third Reich and extremist nationalist movement in Germany in the 1930’s grew directly out of the 1929 Great Depression and the economic collapse of the Weimar Republic - a group that is ’homeless’/‘stateless’ in any society has always been used as a rationale for discrimination and expulsion, especially when a leadership is weak or particularly when natural and social resources are low …
  • Ironically, the very birth of the State of Israel gave rise to a whole new era of anti-Jewish feeling rooted in anti-colonialism and anti-occupation, or more accurately anti-Israel - modern anti-semitism in the Arab world is not against Jews but against the State of Israel.

In modern western culture there is a sort of reverse psychology taking place with regard to anti-semitism - increasingly ‘anti-semitism’ itself is being misappropriated for political expediency - the ‘other’, the ‘outsider’ has become Islam, far right ideologies now target Muslims in diaspora and both the State of Israel and Western anti-semitism are serving weak and far right leaders as a springboard to promote Islamophobia and Great Replacement Theory in the face of rising immigration and depleting public resources - this phenomenon not only diminishes and detracts from the very real and genuine anti-semitism that still exists within contemporary Western culture but those that misappropriate anti-semitism are themselves, it can be argued, being anti-semitic when doing so despite the rhetoric being portrayed as the opposite.


“anti-Jewish attacks are generally not about Jews as people, or about their religious differences. Attacks on Jews are primarily about their fragile status in society, their position as “outsiders,” and about the useful role outsiders can play for political leaders and others as scapegoats during times of crisis.”
 
Last edited:

jonny.rainbow

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2005
6,498
Are the tunnels under the hospital the new weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Odd they haven’t been found yet.
 

Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 20, 2022
3,404
Are the tunnels under the hospital the new weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Odd they haven’t been found yet.
It’s hard to know what to believe- I have also been thinking that there are similarities although in this case ‘Hamas leaders will be killed and weapons found’ for how else will the death of 4,000 children ever be ‘justified’? Finding ‘evidence‘ is Israel’s only defence to the charge of war crimes but ‘any‘ evidence is not enough …and what evidence is found, needs to be checked for its provenance imo.

Competing narratives typify this war so it is simply a question of how many more civilians have to die before Israel can provide enough evidence to say all this was justified? - Which is exactly why any claims of weapons found or evidence of Hamas operations bases has to be independently verified by the UN teams who can’t even get access into Al Shifa at the moment.
 
Last edited:

Albion my Albion

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2016
15,028
Indiana, USA
- ‘eliminating the terrorists’ is largely incontrovertible, it’s the mass killing of civilians that people have an issue with.

the innocent civilians that the terrorists are hiding among in their hospitals. The same terrorists that you agree need to be eliminated. You want Israel to play by international rules while Hamas doesn't agree to those international rules and YOU are giving them license to do that.
 

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
16,882
Gods country fortnightly

Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 20, 2022
3,404
Marches taking place around UK -today - not the size of the London ones - terrible weather!


 

Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 20, 2022
3,404
the innocent civilians that the terrorists are hiding among in their hospitals. The same terrorists that you agree need to be eliminated. You want Israel to play by international rules while Hamas doesn't agree to those international rules and YOU are giving them license to do that.

Firstly, the civilians are hiding in hospitals because they are either wounded/sick/or dying or because they are sheltering from Israeli bombs and unrelenting rocket attacks - I’m not giving Hamas licence to do anything - you saying that is just incorrect and based on a false correlation.

YES - btw - Israel I do expect certainly to abide by the Geneva convention and international humanitarian law - she is a State player, has benefited for decades from international trade, cooperation and arms sales as well as having a seat on the UN Security Council - that comes with a responsibility- Israel is signatory to the conventions and treaties with a military power far superior to Hamas and is unleashing horror on the Palestinian people. Two wrongs don’t make a right as you well know. I am simply saying 11,000 dead civilians and Israel has yet to show any evidence of having achieved Netanyahu’s objectives to get the hostages out alive and destroy Hamas.

You will find yourself on the wrong side of history my friend - support for Israel’s attack on Gaza is waning - and sympathy for the Palestinians is gaining global support and recognition of their plight.

And in case you think of twisting AGAIN what I have been saying on this thread, the attack by Hamas on Israel on 7/10 was utterly contemptible.

Both Israeli citizens and the civilians in Gaza deserve better than this.
 
Last edited:

Flounce

Active member
Nov 15, 2006
93
If it had been Britain brutally attacked by an old enemy in a surprise event in which innocent Brits were killed & their children forced to watch their parents murdered I think many would feel only one thing and that was to eliminate the terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many, many Americans would feel.
Children of Gaza who who have lost most of their family members in this war will be the next generation of “terrorists” imo.
 

tedebear

Legal Alien
Jul 7, 2003
16,466
In my computer
You will find yourself on the wrong side of history my friend - support for Israel’s attack on Gaza is waning - and sympathy for the Palestinians is gaining global support and recognition of their plight.

Both Israeli citizens and the civilians in Gaza deserve better than this.
This is absolutely the thing. Hamas doing what they did was disgusting and there are war crimes have no doubt. But Israels respose now is excessive to say the least and beyond supportable, with war crimes of their own openly now occuring.

Its hard to see this war ever resolving anything though, which makes it even more horrific. A two state solution will continue to be fractious unless Israel fully hand back land and settlements they have taken outside the agreements of 70 odd years ago from Palestinians (doubtful they would), and leave Gaza and the West bank alone to govern itself (can it without enabling terrorists in a vacuum of power?)...Whilst in the middle people like you and I are being decimated.

What doesn't help is the inflammatory language used by both sides, racism, apartheid, colonial genocide. This article is particularly chilling, drawing a correlation with the Tutsi genocide, rightly or wrongly:

 

shingle

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2004
3,065
Lewes
Here's some pics of mine from last weeks London event, I only caught the end bit as I was doing the Lord Mayor's show over in the City.
0.jpg
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
4.jpg
5.jpg
 

Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Oct 20, 2022
3,404
What doesn't help is the inflammatory language used by both sides, racism, apartheid, colonial genocide. This article is particularly chilling, drawing a correlation with the Tutsi genocide, rightly or wrongly:
I agree with everything you say above but on your definition of what Is inflammatory language - referring to what is happening in Gaza as ‘genocide’ maybe too early yet to prove- (those committing it in law need to be shown as having intention) but the policies Israel are pursuing is having a genocidal effect so the discussion needs to be had (and is being had) as to whether the Israeli response to the attack on 10/7 constitutes ‘genocide’.

The use of the word ‘apartheid’ is not inflammatory imo ( unless you disagree that Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same legal and civil rights as Jewish citizens?) ‘Apartheid’ describes any system of government where a proportion of the population are unequal under the laws of that country due to race, religion etc

I absolutely agree that there is racial intolerance on both sides and extremely unhelpful (as has been some of the language used by a few posters here directed at other posters who have expressed alternative PoVs as well as some of the language that’s been directed at Palestinians or Jews)
 
Last edited:

Albion my Albion

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2016
15,028
Indiana, USA
Children of Gaza who who have lost most of their family members in this war will be the next generation of “terrorists” imo.

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.
 

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
34,900
As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.
they get to join IDF instead.
 

Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
12,820
Almería
As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.

Because the Israeli children won't grow up in a poverty-stricken open-air prison.
 

Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports

Paying the bills

Latest Discussions

Paying the bills

Paying the bills

Paying the bills


Top