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[Albion] Four at the back

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Badger Boy

Mr Badger
Jan 28, 2016
2,639
It is not Ben White's fault that Burn was playing so badly he had to be taken off, leaving White to go to left back. Bernardo is a left back, he isn't a wing back or a central midfielder (where he ended up against Arsenal) - he's perfectly competent at this level. He has never played as badly as Burn did last night. March is ok at wing back because he's not good enough defensively (showed Saka on to his stronger foot to cross for the Arsenal winner, and did the same thing last night) but he's got a great work rate and gets up and down the wing and will put in a decent cross if left alone.

Potter has decided to play 3 at the back, whether it benefits the team or not. He's assembled plenty of good centre backs and ignored the full back areas. Lamptey is a full back who has developed into being a very good wing back but he's still a full back and a left footed version to come in and play as a first choice is important to our climbing the table. We've proven in 2020 that 3 at the back does not get the results we want, but we'll carry on anyway. Especially with a manager who doesn't care about playing players in their natural positions and then uses their lack of performance as justification for not playing them again.
 

Stat Brother

Members
Jul 11, 2003
69,583
West west west Sussex
Veltman Dunk Webster and White (playing left) can be our back 4 - especially if Solly's in front of Ben

Yeah you've basically copied me from this morning :dunce:


GPott's defensive set up, this season, has been my one and only frustration with him.
Ages ago I did wonder if he wasn't as smart as he thinks he is, a dangerous combination, and one he's failed to disprove.

The last thing a struggling side needs is a perpetually 'fluid' defence.
The way the season was panning out, very early he should have adopted a KISS approach to the defensive line.
Removing hindsight that's certainly what he needs to do from now.
I have no faith in GPott 'learning his lesson'.


Lamptey Webster Dunk White March

Great, happy days.

'Oh no Dunk is suspended/Lamptey is injured - what is a boy to do'.

KISS

You have no back up full backs.
You have quality centre backs so only make a slight alteration to the defence.

Lamptey Webster Veltman White March

Or

Veltman Webster Dunk White.


Quite how Burn keeps coming into that cycle I'll never know.
Let alone Bernie Inn what must have been his last game.
 
Apr 2, 2017
30
Yeah you've basically copied me from this morning :dunce:


GPott's defensive set up, this season, has been my one and only frustration with him.
Ages ago I did wonder if he wasn't as smart as he thinks he is, a dangerous combination, and one he's failed to disprove.

The last thing a struggling side needs is a perpetually 'fluid' defence.
The way the season was panning out, very early he should have adopted a KISS approach to the defensive line.
Removing hindsight that's certainly what he needs to do from now.
I have no faith in GPott 'learning his lesson'.


Lamptey Webster Dunk White March

Great, happy days.

'Oh no Dunk is suspended/Lamptey is injured - what is a boy to do'.

KISS

You have no back up full backs.
You have quality centre backs so only make a slight alteration to the defence.

Lamptey Webster Veltman White March

Or

Veltman Webster Dunk White.


Quite how Burn keeps coming into that cycle I'll never know.
Let alone Bernie Inn what must have been his last game.

Agree with this. Until we sign a decent LB, I think White needs to take that position ahead of Burn. Did a better job there against a very high quality player.

I do think Burn gets a lot of stick though. He's great getting forward and creating the overlap, bearing in mind he's a CB. Gives his all every game and would choose him above Bernardo - clearly the manager sees the same from training.
 

durrington gull

Members
Aug 29, 2004
2,258
Worthing
Agree with this. Until we sign a decent LB, I think White needs to take that position ahead of Burn. Did a better job there against a very high quality player.

I do think Burn gets a lot of stick though. He's great getting forward and creating the overlap, bearing in mind he's a CB. Gives his all every game and would choose him above Bernardo - clearly the manager sees the same from training.

I agree Burn gets a lot of unnecessary flack - easy to forget he was one of our better players last season but I do think Bernardo should now be ahead of him at LB
 

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
Oct 8, 2003
40,727
Faversham
Only need four players to cover the width of the pitch

You only need three, if they're big fat lads.???

Edit: No, sod that, I won't say what I'd like to see WRT our line up. I'm just a supporter. If I actually knew anything about coaching and team selection I'd be doing it, and earing several million pounds a year, along with the likes of Big Sam, Oneilco, Pards and Desperate Dan.
 
Last edited:

GT49er

Members
Feb 1, 2009
41,790
Gloucester
With hindsight - definitely with the benefit of hindsight - here is my take on the defence. Wait for it - here goes - we should have sold Ben White to Leeds for £25M in the summer. Maybe tried to push them to £30M, with a good sell on clause. There, I've said it. I feel ashamed! At the time, I'd have been heartbroken not to see him in an Albion shirt, and furious that we were giving way to that shower of shite and letting them keep him, and suffering all their nasty on-line triumphalism - but now, in hindsight I'd have taken the money.
This is not because I think White's not a good player - he's very good, and I hope he goes on getting better and plays for England one day. There are though, IMHO, two reasons why we should have let him go:
Firstly, the transfer fee. If we are to base our future development model on the lines of Southampton and Leicester - that is developing players, selling them for big money and replacing them with more home-developed youngsters, we need to start getting decent fees for our players; preferably £50 or £60M, but £25 -£30M would be a start. At the moment our biggest sales are barely half of what we paid for Maupay or Webster, and millions short of what we paid for flops like Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. Right now, we're nowhere near being in that sell 'em high club, and until we do get there, we'll always struggle to survive at this level with our present academy based recruitment model.
Secondly - and more importantly - bringing White back to Brighton gave Potter some big decisions to make - and he bottled them. Dunk, White asnd Webster were all used to - and very good at - playing in a back four. We could play 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) using Lamptey and March as wingers in that system (neither of them are out and out FBs). We'd have needed to look for some new FBs to be sure - although Veltman and Burn were at least good enough to cover - but to play this way, who would Potter have to leave out?
Dunk, club captain and legend? Surely not. Webster, the player that by all accounts GP pushed very hard to get in and we paid £20M for? Wouldn't look good. Or White, the widely lauded wonder player that other clubs were clamouring to pay £millions for? Hmm .... tricky! OK, bottle that, we'll play three at the back.......
Which, to be fair, has its merits - we have two excellent wingbacks in March and Lamptey (though not much cover if one or both are unavailable) - but we have another problem. Learning to play three at the back is OK, but the trouble is, none of the three if them, White, Dunk and Webster, are comfortable playing on the left of the three. Our only CB who naturally plays there and would be comfortable there is BDB. Fine, play him there, but that means making a decision about which one of White, Dunk or Webster gets left out. Decision time? Err, no - we'll play all three with one of them out of position!
We've got a whole defence of very good players (yes, even BDB!), but the blend isn't right - and as long as Potter tries to shoehorn White, Dunk and Webster in it will continue to be so. So - in hindsight, I'd have let White go in the summer.
That, I must emphasise, is my opinion; other opinions are available, and equally valid!
 


Blue Valkyrie

Not seen such Bravery!
Sep 1, 2012
32,165
Valhalla
With hindsight - definitely with the benefit of hindsight - here is my take on the defence. Wait for it - here goes - we should have sold Ben White to Leeds for £25M in the summer. Maybe tried to push them to £30M, with a good sell on clause. There, I've said it. I feel ashamed! At the time, I'd have been heartbroken not to see him in an Albion shirt, and furious that we were giving way to that shower of shite and letting them keep him, and suffering all their nasty on-line triumphalism - but now, in hindsight I'd have taken the money.
This is not because I think White's not a good player - he's very good, and I hope he goes on getting better and plays for England one day. There are though, IMHO, two reasons why we should have let him go:
Firstly, the transfer fee. If we are to base our future development model on the lines of Southampton and Leicester - that is developing players, selling them for big money and replacing them with more home-developed youngsters, we need to start getting decent fees for our players; preferably £50 or £60M, but £25 -£30M would be a start. At the moment our biggest sales are barely half of what we paid for Maupay or Webster, and millions short of what we paid for flops like Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. Right now, we're nowhere near being in that sell 'em high club, and until we do get there, we'll always struggle to survive at this level with our present academy based recruitment model.
Secondly - and more importantly - bringing White back to Brighton gave Potter some big decisions to make - and he bottled them. Dunk, White asnd Webster were all used to - and very good at - playing in a back four. We could play 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) using Lamptey and March as wingers in that system (neither of them are out and out FBs). We'd have needed to look for some new FBs to be sure - although Veltman and Burn were at least good enough to cover - but to play this way, who would Potter have to leave out?
Dunk, club captain and legend? Surely not. Webster, the player that by all accounts GP pushed very hard to get in and we paid £20M for? Wouldn't look good. Or White, the widely lauded wonder player that other clubs were clamouring to pay £millions for? Hmm .... tricky! OK, bottle that, we'll play three at the back.......
Which, to be fair, has its merits - we have two excellent wingbacks in March and Lamptey (though not much cover if one or both are unavailable) - but we have another problem. Learning to play three at the back is OK, but the trouble is, none of the three if them, White, Dunk and Webster, are comfortable playing on the left of the three. Our only CB who naturally plays there and would be comfortable there is BDB. Fine, play him there, but that means making a decision about which one of White, Dunk or Webster gets left out. Decision time? Err, no - we'll play all three with one of them out of position!
We've got a whole defence of very good players (yes, even BDB!), but the blend isn't right - and as long as Potter tries to shoehorn White, Dunk and Webster in it will continue to be so. So - in hindsight, I'd have let White go in the summer.
That, I must emphasise, is my opinion; other opinions are available, and equally valid!
I agree with everything you say. In hindsight we possibly should have accepted the bid. But then if he'd been a success at Leeds then a different hindsight would have been in play.
 

Hampster Gull

Members
Dec 22, 2010
13,462
With hindsight - definitely with the benefit of hindsight - here is my take on the defence. Wait for it - here goes - we should have sold Ben White to Leeds for £25M in the summer. Maybe tried to push them to £30M, with a good sell on clause. There, I've said it. I feel ashamed! At the time, I'd have been heartbroken not to see him in an Albion shirt, and furious that we were giving way to that shower of shite and letting them keep him, and suffering all their nasty on-line triumphalism - but now, in hindsight I'd have taken the money.
This is not because I think White's not a good player - he's very good, and I hope he goes on getting better and plays for England one day. There are though, IMHO, two reasons why we should have let him go:
Firstly, the transfer fee. If we are to base our future development model on the lines of Southampton and Leicester - that is developing players, selling them for big money and replacing them with more home-developed youngsters, we need to start getting decent fees for our players; preferably £50 or £60M, but £25 -£30M would be a start. At the moment our biggest sales are barely half of what we paid for Maupay or Webster, and millions short of what we paid for flops like Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. Right now, we're nowhere near being in that sell 'em high club, and until we do get there, we'll always struggle to survive at this level with our present academy based recruitment model.
Secondly - and more importantly - bringing White back to Brighton gave Potter some big decisions to make - and he bottled them. Dunk, White asnd Webster were all used to - and very good at - playing in a back four. We could play 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) using Lamptey and March as wingers in that system (neither of them are out and out FBs). We'd have needed to look for some new FBs to be sure - although Veltman and Burn were at least good enough to cover - but to play this way, who would Potter have to leave out?
Dunk, club captain and legend? Surely not. Webster, the player that by all accounts GP pushed very hard to get in and we paid £20M for? Wouldn't look good. Or White, the widely lauded wonder player that other clubs were clamouring to pay £millions for? Hmm .... tricky! OK, bottle that, we'll play three at the back.......
Which, to be fair, has its merits - we have two excellent wingbacks in March and Lamptey (though not much cover if one or both are unavailable) - but we have another problem. Learning to play three at the back is OK, but the trouble is, none of the three if them, White, Dunk and Webster, are comfortable playing on the left of the three. Our only CB who naturally plays there and would be comfortable there is BDB. Fine, play him there, but that means making a decision about which one of White, Dunk or Webster gets left out. Decision time? Err, no - we'll play all three with one of them out of position!
We've got a whole defence of very good players (yes, even BDB!), but the blend isn't right - and as long as Potter tries to shoehorn White, Dunk and Webster in it will continue to be so. So - in hindsight, I'd have let White go in the summer.
That, I must emphasise, is my opinion; other opinions are available, and equally valid!

You’ve got big balls GT49er, I like it
 

Stat Brother

Members
Jul 11, 2003
69,583
West west west Sussex
I agree with everything you say. In hindsight we possibly should have accepted the bid. But then if he'd been a success at Leeds then a different hindsight would have been in play.
Nicely put.

Leeds having a solid defence with White and all their attacking intent, makes it hard to imagine reading the opinion 'selling White was the right thing to do' on here.
 

amexer

Members
Aug 8, 2011
4,974
With hindsight - definitely with the benefit of hindsight - here is my take on the defence. Wait for it - here goes - we should have sold Ben White to Leeds for £25M in the summer. Maybe tried to push them to £30M, with a good sell on clause. There, I've said it. I feel ashamed! At the time, I'd have been heartbroken not to see him in an Albion shirt, and furious that we were giving way to that shower of shite and letting them keep him, and suffering all their nasty on-line triumphalism - but now, in hindsight I'd have taken the money.
This is not because I think White's not a good player - he's very good, and I hope he goes on getting better and plays for England one day. There are though, IMHO, two reasons why we should have let him go:
Firstly, the transfer fee. If we are to base our future development model on the lines of Southampton and Leicester - that is developing players, selling them for big money and replacing them with more home-developed youngsters, we need to start getting decent fees for our players; preferably £50 or £60M, but £25 -£30M would be a start. At the moment our biggest sales are barely half of what we paid for Maupay or Webster, and millions short of what we paid for flops like Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. Right now, we're nowhere near being in that sell 'em high club, and until we do get there, we'll always struggle to survive at this level with our present academy based recruitment model.
Secondly - and more importantly - bringing White back to Brighton gave Potter some big decisions to make - and he bottled them. Dunk, White asnd Webster were all used to - and very good at - playing in a back four. We could play 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) using Lamptey and March as wingers in that system (neither of them are out and out FBs). We'd have needed to look for some new FBs to be sure - although Veltman and Burn were at least good enough to cover - but to play this way, who would Potter have to leave out?
Dunk, club captain and legend? Surely not. Webster, the player that by all accounts GP pushed very hard to get in and we paid £20M for? Wouldn't look good. Or White, the widely lauded wonder player that other clubs were clamouring to pay £millions for? Hmm .... tricky! OK, bottle that, we'll play three at the back.......
Which, to be fair, has its merits - we have two excellent wingbacks in March and Lamptey (though not much cover if one or both are unavailable) - but we have another problem. Learning to play three at the back is OK, but the trouble is, none of the three if them, White, Dunk and Webster, are comfortable playing on the left of the three. Our only CB who naturally plays there and would be comfortable there is BDB. Fine, play him there, but that means making a decision about which one of White, Dunk or Webster gets left out. Decision time? Err, no - we'll play all three with one of them out of position!
We've got a whole defence of very good players (yes, even BDB!), but the blend isn't right - and as long as Potter tries to shoehorn White, Dunk and Webster in it will continue to be so. So - in hindsight, I'd have let White go in the summer.
That, I must emphasise, is my opinion; other opinions are available, and equally valid!

Agree we should have sold White or maybe Dunk.and used money towards a striker. Central defending with Dunk and Webster with Duffy/Burn in reserve last season was not our problem. Appreciate Duffy loaned out but we now have White and a Dutch international CB. I think an experienced PL manager would have said great not worry about keeping them all happy and selected 2 to play in a back 4. Instead we have a manager who not only changes the system but tries to play them all even if out of position.
I dont understand why so many say Lampty is not a full back. He certainly was when we signed him.
We will never be able buy very good established players until like many clubs we start selling odd player for huge fee. Burnley,Leicester,WolvesSouthampton are good examples. Leicester sold fullback for £40m and are 3rd in PL. Think they also sold McGuire to Utd. They are in championship but Brentford sold 2 best players for about £50m which be a great help to transfer kitty if and when they get promoted
 

GT49er

Members
Feb 1, 2009
41,790
Gloucester
I agree with everything you say. In hindsight we possibly should have accepted the bid. But then if he'd been a success at Leeds then a different hindsight would have been in play.

True enough - can't possibly deny that. But then maybe if we'd been able to turn four or five of our draws into wins we might not be too bothered about what Leeds were or were not doing - especially if we were watching our lad increasing his value, a good percentage of which was ours!
 

GT49er

Members
Feb 1, 2009
41,790
Gloucester
Agree we should have sold White or maybe Dunk.and used money towards a striker. Central defending with Dunk and Webster with Duffy/Burn in reserve last season was not our problem. Appreciate Duffy loaned out but we now have White and a Dutch international CB. I think an experienced PL manager would have said great not worry about keeping them all happy and selected 2 to play in a back 4. Instead we have a manager who not only changes the system but tries to play them all even if out of position.
I dont understand why so many say Lamptey is not a full back. He certainly was when we signed him.
We will never be able buy very good established players until like many clubs we start selling odd player for huge fee. Burnley,Leicester,WolvesSouthampton are good examples. Leicester sold fullback for £40m and are 3rd in PL. Think they also sold McGuire to Utd. They are in championship but Brentford sold 2 best players for about £50m which be a great help to transfer kitty if and when they get promoted
Yes, except I think the days of selling Dunk for big money have passed. Not his fault - smashing player, just not perceived as a 'big name' any more, apart from us Albion fans, of course.
As for Lamptey not being a full back, I know Liverpool can play four at the back with the fullbacks frolicking around in the opponent's six yard area, but we're not that good yet! Lamptey at RWB, yes, yes, yes! But not as a RB, not for me anyway. Too adventurous!
 

Perkino

Members
Dec 11, 2009
5,744
Yes, except I think the days of selling Dunk for big money have passed. Not his fault - smashing player, just not perceived as a 'big name' any more, apart from us Albion fans, of course.
As for Lamptey not being a full back, I know Liverpool can play four at the back with the fullbacks frolicking around in the opponent's six yard area, but we're not that good yet! Lamptey at RWB, yes, yes, yes! But not as a RB, not for me anyway. Too adventurous!

Our best run of games under Potter arguably came post lockdown. We had 9 games playing some great football during which Lamptey played 7 of these games as a RB in a back 4
 


GT49er

Members
Feb 1, 2009
41,790
Gloucester
Our best run of games under Potter arguably came post lockdown. We had 9 games playing some great football during which Lamptey played 7 of these games as a RB in a back 4
Did we? Yes, I think you're probably right; I'm certainly not going to argue!

At the time though, we didn't have the problem of shoe-horning in Dunk AND White AND Webster, regardless of position - or of having to leave one of them on the bench. Not an easy decision - glad it's not down to me to make - but I don''t get paid £Ks a week to do just that!
 

Napper

Members
Jul 9, 2003
22,974
Sussex
If we had signed a decent LB ( in a Veltman mode , not a LWB) , then we could easily switch to 4 at the back .

It was as crucial as a striker last summer but wasn't addressed.

Some of our failings now are because of this
 

GT49er

Members
Feb 1, 2009
41,790
Gloucester
Nicely put.

Leeds having a solid defence with White and all their attacking intent, makes it hard to imagine reading the opinion 'selling White was the right thing to do' on here.

Although if, with a settled defence and no-one being shoe-horned in or being asked to play out of position, we'd converted a decent number of our draws into wins and were sitting just above Leeds in the table (4 wins instead of draws and we would be) there might not have been too many complaints.
 
May 11, 2015
5,230
Bloody Worthing!
I'm a reluctant addition to the flat back 4 army. Weltman isn't quick enough to be RWB. Lamptey has pace to burn and is - but he's crocked too often to build a team shape around him. And as a traditional RB he can still overlap and maraud into the opposition penalty area. Playing BW at LB is a (hopefully short term) expedient and with Solly in font of him he shouldn't be over-exposed.
Of course, a flat back 4 can't be chosen is isolation from the overall team shape. So is it back to the future with 4-4-2, a thin midfield with 4-3-3 or something more fancy involving Lallana or Trossard as the 1 in a 4-3-1-2?
 

maltaseagull

Members
Feb 25, 2009
11,761
Zabbar- Malta
What's crucial now is:

Getting Lamptey back, keeping him fit and getting someone in to cover
Keeping Lallana & Propper fit
And Wellbeck more clinical and less time at the clinic

Getting a LB /LWB as cover.

The rest around them should be fine if EVER playing in correct position:clap2:

Edited for you :)
 

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