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[Football] "Embarrassing, it’s an absolute disgrace"



banjo

GOSBTS
Oct 25, 2011
13,212
Deep south
Exactly this.
Like rugby.
The on field ref is in charge, ideally with a headset on and communicates with the VAR.
All decision making should be made at the pitch side monitor, with the VAR sending the images to the ref to decide whether to change their decision.
Rugby is a far harder game to referee yet the difference in quality of the referees and the process is ridiculous
Is this because most refs have played the game?
 

nickbrighton

Well-known member
Feb 19, 2016
1,900
we all know that its the people operating the tech, not the tech itself. We all know that for the offsides ruled out by the thickness of someones shirt sleeve that there is no tech able to pinpoint the exact moment the ball is kicked, the distance a player travels in that fraction of a second is greater than the difference between two frames, and certainly more than the distance they are being ruled offside by(not well explained, but I hope you all understand my point)

NOTHING will change, no matter how egarious the decisions untill one thing happens. That is ALL managers call out VAR "errors" everytime- not just when they go against your team.
Artetas rant would be more powerful if in his press confrence smug eddie had said, we are pleased to have won, but Arsenals goal was incorrectly allowed because of the two handed push, ball out of play, ridiculous offside call etc

Wont happen, nothing changes
 

SeagullsoverLondon

2024: Dublin here we come
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Jun 20, 2021
3,111
This is quite a powerful argument for whether the ball was definitely in or out.
(Strangely enough shared from a Spurs account)
In a nutshell, it's not easy to be 100% sure.


We have the richest league in the world, with money to burn. The PL should be insisting all clubs instal state of the art AI assisted camera systems all around the pitch that can check more accurately whether balls are out of play, offside lines etc.

Also, I would quite like to see a computer modelling system that predicts whether when there is contact between players, the player should have been able to stay on their feet or not (based upon the speed, the angle and the force of the contact) .
 

ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,121
Just far enough away from LDC
Massively. Another downside of it.
Agreed. Both the maguire offside and the newcastle goal would have been ruled out between lino and ref. Now the lino waits to see what var says.

I also reckon assistant refs have got slower since var was introduced
 


ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,121
Just far enough away from LDC
Sorry but I disagree. Offside shouldn't be subjective, either you're off or you're on. They could change the law to say the lines are only drawn at the feet rather than a part of the body that you can legitimately score with but that would need IFAB to do that. If it becomes subjective as you suggest, one ref would give it another wouldn't and that takes us further away from the consistency that is required.
The problem with absolute on or off only works of the cameras are on runners and track up and down the pitch like assistant refs used to do. Everything else is about triangulation on a pixelated photo.
 

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
22,942
Burgess Hill
We have the richest league in the world, with money to burn. The PL should be insisting all clubs instal state of the art AI assisted camera systems all around the pitch that can check more accurately whether balls are out of play, offside lines etc.

Also, I would quite like to see a computer modelling system that predicts whether when there is contact between players, the player should have been able to stay on their feet or not (based upon the speed, the angle and the force of the contact) .
They just need 8 fixed cameras covering the lines from each end.
 

tedebear

Legal Alien
Jul 7, 2003
16,659
In my computer
Exactly this.
Like rugby.
The on field ref is in charge, ideally with a headset on and communicates with the VAR.
All decision making should be made at the pitch side monitor, with the VAR sending the images to the ref to decide whether to change their decision.
Rugby is a far harder game to referee yet the difference in quality of the referees and the process is ridiculous
Yes - this is exactly what I thought last weekend having watched the Rugby World Cup final and going to our home game against Fulham which descended into a farce of cheating and exceptionally poor officiating. The different between the two was night and day. The PGMOL need either disbanding or rebuilding to produce the standard of officiating with complete transparency that Rugby has, and I frankly can't believe I'm saying that!! Personally the fact that virtually no rugby player talked back or even engaged with the referee was astounding, its in the rules and its policed. Arteta is a moaning nancy, but he does have a point. Edited to add that if a club cannot field the required cameras to provide competent VAR, then it defeats the purpose!
 


SeagullsoverLondon

2024: Dublin here we come
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Jun 20, 2021
3,111
Yes - this is exactly what I thought last weekend having watched the Rugby World Cup final and going to our home game against Fulham which descended into a farce of cheating and exceptionally poor officiating. The different between the two was night and day. The PGMOL need either disbanding or rebuilding to produce the standard of officiating with complete transparency that Rugby has, and I frankly can't believe I'm saying that!! Personally the fact that virtually no rugby player talked back or even engaged with the referee was astounding, its in the rules and its policed. Arteta is a moaning nancy, but he does have a point. Edited to add that if a club cannot field the required cameras to provide competent VAR, then it defeats the purpose!
if a club cannot field the required cameras to provide competent VAR...the PL installs it on their behalf and deducts the cost from their prize money / TV income.
 


ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,121
Just far enough away from LDC
Ok fair enough, but it seems whats installed can't give the required angles?
As I said in an earlier post. To get offsides right you either have a camera that moves with the last defender

if we want to make it automated you need goaline tech on a huge scale. Theyre are 8 covering each goal for that so will need something like 40 (20 each side) then ai could be linked
 

Frankie

Put him in the curry
May 23, 2016
4,061
Mid west Wales
Very hard not to agree with everything Arteta said,Howard Webb should start looking in the situations vacant column because he's somehow managed to make VAR actually worse than it was when he took over,yes Howard you've certainly made a huge difference. :nono:
 


Blue3

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2014
5,531
Lancing
The officiating has dropped in quality since the introduction of VAR. I’m convinced of it.
They have got to put a time limit upon the review if a clear and obvious mistake can not be identified in 30 seconds then the on field decision stands
 

tedebear

Legal Alien
Jul 7, 2003
16,659
In my computer
As I said in an earlier post. To get offsides right you either have a camera that moves with the last defender

if we want to make it automated you need goaline tech on a huge scale. Theyre are 8 covering each goal for that so will need something like 40 (20 each side) then ai could be linked
I'm not sure thats really whats needed. Although it would be good, its expensive. Its the inconsistency between fields that the issue and the lack of transparency over what was used to make the decision. Either each field needs identically placed cameras (so we would all know the weak spots), or guidance for VAR and we need to hear the input to the decision or we go back to leaving it in the referees hands. The inconsistency is unfair to all.
 

Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
10,429
How long have we had VAR now? Three or four seasons?

I'd like to see the number of official apologies issued for the 3 or 4 years pre-VAR and the number issued since VAR came in.

I'd bet decent money it's gone way up since VAR.
Yes but that's only because there is no reason to make mistakes now the laws permit a second check within the game.

It was always established that human error was a factor, before VAR.
 

macbeth

Dismembered
Jan 3, 2018
3,612
six feet beneath the moon...
To be fair the ball looked like it went out of play during the VAR review, or do people think that stayed in play?

View attachment 169186
right this is going back a very long way so i may be misremembering. but can anyone else recall, years ago, during the lockdown season, we beat burnley at turf moor on the final day. connolly scored our winning goal, but there was some debate as to whether the ball had gone out on the touch line before that.

i could’ve sworn they had some sort of line they used during the VAR process to check if it had gone out. what happened to that? why are they no longer using it?
 


Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
10,429
we all know that its the people operating the tech, not the tech itself. We all know that for the offsides ruled out by the thickness of someones shirt sleeve that there is no tech able to pinpoint the exact moment the ball is kicked, the distance a player travels in that fraction of a second is greater than the difference between two frames, and certainly more than the distance they are being ruled offside by(not well explained, but I hope you all understand my point)

NOTHING will change, no matter how egarious the decisions untill one thing happens. That is ALL managers call out VAR "errors" everytime- not just when they go against your team.
Artetas rant would be more powerful if in his press confrence smug eddie had said, we are pleased to have won, but Arsenals goal was incorrectly allowed because of the two handed push, ball out of play, ridiculous offside call etc

Wont happen, nothing changes
This.

Dyche was happy to call out the penalty appeals for his side, but didn't mention the ludicrous decision to rule out Dunk's equaliser.
 

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