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[Football] 0-14: England in big tournament knockout matches vs big teams on foreign soil



Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
I just thought it was kind of relevant to point out - in my reckoning - if we beat the Dutch then it would be our biggest - and FIRST ever - knockout win against a big contender nation on foreign soil.

It looks like it would be the biggest. Lots of teams are contenders though. Denmark won in 92, Greece won in 2004, but if we'd knocked either of those out you'd argue they weren't contenders.


I realise now it was foolish of me to have embarked on this thread without providing FIFA World Rankings at the date of each match, as the matter is entirely subjective.

You're the one who brought rankings into it when you said Belgium in 1990 doesn't count.
 




Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
5,577
I just thought it was kind of relevant to point out - in my reckoning - if we beat the Dutch then it would be our biggest - and FIRST ever - knockout win against a big contender nation on foreign soil.

I realise now it was foolish of me to have embarked on this thread without providing FIFA World Rankings at the date of each match, as the matter is entirely subjective.
Don't forget XG either for Christ sake.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,970
It looks like it would be the biggest. Lots of teams are contenders though. Denmark won in 92, Greece won in 2004, but if we'd knocked either of those out you'd argue they weren't contenders.




You're the one who brought rankings into it when you said Belgium in 1990 doesn't count.
So where you are is the record isn't 0-14, it might be 0-11 or 0-12 unless you're saying Belgium in 1990 was a 'big team'?
 


Flounce

Well-known member
Nov 15, 2006
2,555
Stats look terrible. I have had a mindset for years now that we are going out to the first good team with a decent manager in any tournament played abroad. Got to change eventually by the law of averages surely.

I’ll hang my hat on tonight and see how it goes :smile:
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
1. They were hosts and expected to do well.

2. They did do well, they got to the final and threw it away vs Greece having beaten Spain, us and the Dutch en route. WC s/f 2 years later

3. They were 5th at the year end http://www.rankfootball.com/men-2004.html

4. Ergo, they were a big team at the time of the game.

They were not. When a team beats us, they go up in the rankings, but when they lose against us, they go down. You're basically using this to argue that any team we beat is by definition a bit shit, and any team that beats us is decent, and therefore we always lose against a big team. You can't use the ranking of Portugal at the end of the year, 6 months after we played them, and ignore the ranking a few days before we played them. You know you're being silly.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
So where you are is the record isn't 0-14, it might be 0-11 or 0-12 unless you're saying Belgium in 1990 was a 'big team'?

Yes. And I think we can be quite proud of 0-11.
 




Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,970
They were not. When a team beats us, they go up in the rankings, but when they lose against us, they go down. You're basically using this to argue that any team we beat is by definition a bit shit, and any team that beats us is decent, and therefore we always lose against a big team. You can't use the ranking of Portugal at the end of the year, 6 months after we played them, and ignore the ranking a few days before we played them. You know you're being silly.
So you're saying that when we played the hosts Portugal - in Lisbon - in 2004 when they had Luis Figo, Ricardo Carvalho, Maniche, Deco and the great Cristiano Ronaldo that they weren't a big team?
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
So you're saying that when we played the hosts Portugal - in Lisbon - in 2004 when they had Luis Figo, Ricardo Carvalho, Maniche, Deco and the great Cristiano Ronaldo that they weren't a big team?

We all know that we don't beat big teams in the knockout stages on foreign soil. But I suspect quite a few of the teams on your list weren't really big teams at the time. How do we decide what constitutes a big team and what doesn't? You discounted Belgium because of FIFA rankings, so if that's the method, then we need to discount Croatia and Portugal too.

If it makes you feel better, you'll be able to add another team to your list in a few hours.
 


Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo

Waxing chumps like candles since ‘75
Oct 4, 2003
11,505


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,970
We all know that we don't beat big teams in the knockout stages on foreign soil. But I suspect quite a few of the teams on your list weren't really big teams at the time. How do we decide what constitutes a big team and what doesn't? You discounted Belgium because of FIFA rankings, so if that's the method, then we need to discount Croatia and Portugal too.

If it makes you feel better, you'll be able to add another team to your list in a few hours.
If it makes you feel better I am willing to accept:

1. Your use of FIFA Rankings to decide the 'bigness' of teams (1992 onwards, obviously. No official FIFA rankings before then)
2. That by using those rankings then losing to 2004 Euro finalists Portugal (even though they did beat us, Spain and the Dutch) and 2006 World Cup finalists Croatia (even though they did beat Argentina 3-0) does not constitute us getting beaten by a 'big' side.
3. That our record is therefore 0-11, or maybe 0-12. But it's probably what you said.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
If it makes you feel better I am willing to accept:

1. Your use of FIFA Rankings to decide the 'bigness' of teams (1992 onwards, obviously. No official FIFA rankings before then)
2. That by using those rankings then losing to 2004 Euro finalists Portugal (even though they did beat us, Spain and the Dutch) and 2006 World Cup finalists Croatia (even though they did beat Argentina 3-0) does not constitute us getting beaten by a 'big' side.
3. That our record is therefore 0-11, or maybe 0-12. But it's probably what you said.

That's made me feel a lot better, thank you
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,927
Goldstone
If it makes you feel better I am willing to accept:

1. Your use of FIFA Rankings to decide the 'bigness' of teams (1992 onwards, obviously. No official FIFA rankings before then)
2. That by using those rankings then losing to 2004 Euro finalists Portugal (even though they did beat us, Spain and the Dutch) and 2006 World Cup finalists Croatia (even though they did beat Argentina 3-0) does not constitute us getting beaten by a 'big' side.
3. That our record is therefore 0-11, or maybe 0-12. But it's probably what you said.

So what do you use for a team's 'bigness' before 1992?
 








halbpro

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2012
2,886
Brighton
Just out of interest - how many times have we played a team ranked above us in a competitive match under Southgate
Under Southgate we've played 13 of 102 games (including all games) against higher ranked teams. We won 2, drew 5, lost 6.

Of actual competitive games:

2018 World Cup Group - Lost to Belgium (12 vs 3)
2018 World Cup 3rd Place - Lost to Belgium (12 vs 3)
2018-19 Nations League Group - Drew with Croatia (6 vs 4)
2018-19 Nations League Group - Beat Croatia (5 vs 4)
2020-21 Nations League Group - Beat Belgium (4 vs 1)
2020-21 Nations League Group - Lost to Belgium (4 vs 1)
2022 World Cup Quarter Final - Lost to France (5 vs 4)

Given the Nations League is a big of a joke, we've only really played 3 against higher ranked sides and one of those was way back in 2018
 




phoenix

Well-known member
May 18, 2009
2,736
1954: L Uruguay QF WC Basel
1962: L Brazil QF WC Vina Del Mar
1968: L Yugoslavia SF Euros Florence
1970: L West Germany QF aet WC Leon
1986: L Argentina QF WC Mexico City
1990: L West Germany SF pens WC Turin
1998: L Argentina L16 pens WC St. Etienne
2002: L Brazil QF WC Shizuoka
2004: L Portugal QF pens Euros Lisbon
2006: L Portugal QF pens WC Gelsenkirchen
2010: L Germany L16 WC Bloemfontein
2012: L Italy QF pens Euros Kiev
2018: L Croatia SF aet WC Moscow
2022: L France QF WC Al Khor

1954: L Uruguay QF WC Basel
1962: L Brazil QF WC Vina Del Mar
1968: L Yugoslavia SF Euros Florence
1970: L West Germany QF aet WC Leon
1986: L Argentina QF WC Mexico City
Y
 
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