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Paul Ince playing the race card



B

Beach Seagull

New member
Jan 2, 2010
1,310
The debate will no doubt be ratcheted up a level today after the findings of the Sports Persons Think Tank are published citing the lack of BAME coaches in the game. No doubt Jason Roberts will be as vocal as ever, I wonder if he has done his coaching badges? I wonder if we will hear anything on the subject from Garth Crookes, Ian Wright and John Salako as they contemplate a stress free week on the golf course before rocking up at the studio for 'work' on Saturday? Have they done their coaching badges? Or is the comfort of the TV studio more appealing? As for Paul Ince he has been given numerous opportunities at clubs and apart from Macclesfield he failed at them all. He lamented the fact he didn't get the Wolves job, who opted for the experience of Mick McCarthy, hinting at racism behind the decision, no it wasn't they opted for an experienced manager (it worked as he got them promotion). He also cited John Barnes who is 'unable to get back in'.....the same John Barnes who was given the Celtic managers job as his first managerial position, who masterminded the defeat to Inverness Cally Thistle, who was then given another chance at Tranmere (and failed).

FWIW I believe in a meritocracy and if we had a disabled lesbian from a BAME background masterminding a promotion push this season I would be happy. But please spare us the race card, if you are good enough you will get the job. How many low profile white ex players are there who are unable to 'get back in' but don't have the benefit of 'reports' and 'studies' backing them up?
 




User removed 4

User removed 4

New member
May 9, 2008
13,331
Haywards Heath
Beach Seagull said:
The debate will no doubt be ratcheted up a level today after the findings of the Sports Persons Think Tank are published citing the lack of BAME coaches in the game. No doubt Jason Roberts will be as vocal as ever, I wonder if he has done his coaching badges? I wonder if we will hear anything on the subject from Garth Crookes, Ian Wright and John Salako as they contemplate a stress free week on the golf course before rocking up at the studio for 'work' on Saturday? Have they done their coaching badges? Or is the comfort of the TV studio more appealing? As for Paul Ince he has been given numerous opportunities at clubs and apart from Macclesfield he failed at them all. He lamented the fact he didn't get the Wolves job, who opted for the experience of Mick McCarthy, hinting at racism behind the decision, no it wasn't they opted for an experienced manager (it worked as he got them promotion). He also cited John Barnes who is 'unable to get back in'.....the same John Barnes who was given the Celtic managers job as his first managerial position, who masterminded the defeat to Inverness Cally Thistle, who was then given another chance at Tranmere (and failed).

FWIW I believe in a meritocracy and if we had a disabled lesbian from a BAME background masterminding a promotion push this season I would be happy. But please spare us the race card, if you are good enough you will get the job. How many low profile white ex players are there who are unable to 'get back in' but don't have the benefit of 'reports' and 'studies' backing them up?
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This ^^^^
 


S

SAC

Well-known member
May 21, 2014
2,549
I'm sure that Paul Ince would be good enough to coach in League Two on non league. What I don't know is if he is applying for these positions and getting turned down due to him being black, being too expensive or being a tosser. Or not applying for them.

I suspect that he gets paid more for his media work than he would for managing in the lower leagues and this is the real problem. That and him being a tosser.
 


Not Andy Naylor

Not Andy Naylor

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2007
8,798
Seven Dials
I was once asked to write something on Mr Ince (sadly it's behind a paywall) just after he'd got the boot at Blackburn and I spoke to a few people at various clubs he'd been at as a player and coach (except MK Dons, who refused to co-operate). Macclesfield especially loved him, and people behind the scenes at West Ham definitely considered him future management material. But the Warwick University business school, who run a course for managers that covers all the admin, PR and non-coaching side of the job, had a very different story to tell. Full of himself, skived off to play golf, going through the motions because he expected his name to get him a job - and when it did, he didn't bother finishing the course. Perhaps he should have.

The race card is a difficult thing to judge. Sol Campbell plays it constantly as the reason he didn't become England captain - nothing to do with being a surly, uncommunicative loner, of course. The question is about how many black or mixed-race players apply to join coaching courses, get their badges and licences and then get jobs. Our own Chris Ramsey has not always found it easy to find work at top clubs despite having coached England teams at various levels.

Interestingly, Ince did eventually get his Pro Licence and was on the same course as a certain Nathan Jones. It's perhaps quite revealing that the overwhelming majority of students on the course were white: the full list was Richie Barker, Keith Bertschin, Wayne Burnett, Keith Downing, Alex Dyer, Lois Fidler, Ryan Giggs, Stephane Henchoz, Paul Ince, Nathan Jones, Ian Kerr, Mike Marsh, Nicholas Marshall, Micky Mellon, Dennis Mortimer, Gary Neville, Shaun North, Chris Powell, Mark Yates, Runar Kristinsson and Graham Kavanagh.
 






glasfryn

glasfryn

cleaning up cat sick
Nov 29, 2005
20,261
somewhere in Eastbourne
thinks he is a better manager than he actually is, unfortunately.
 


Official Old Man

Official Old Man

Uckfield Seagull
Aug 27, 2011
8,544
Brighton
Surely the Rooney Rule means that a black manager has to be interviewed. From there the board will not employ him because manager A is better. Then the black manager goes to a race tribunal board claiming he should have got the job and claims compensation. And before you ask, I employ a black girl because she is good at the job, colour means nothing.
 


JBizzle

JBizzle

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2010
5,817
Seaford
For Ince (who I'm certain got jobs based on his reputation - which in itself is a "leg up"), it's a convenient excuse to hide behind. For others, not so much. It's clear that there isn't enough diversity in football coaching and management, but as [MENTION=29007]Javeaseagull[/MENTION] said: "someone said there are only 14 non-white people (as they put it) with the requisite badges to be a manager". "Why" is the first question to be asked here...
 












yxee

yxee

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2011
2,521
Manchester
Dick Knights Mumm said:
So if the dice are loaded it is discrimination to make the game more even? Can't see that myself.
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And if the dice aren't loaded in 100% of cases, I suppose absolutely nothing can go wrong from trying to meddle in the process...

No. If you discover the dice to be loaded, you throw them out of the casino. Otherwise, you must work on the grounds that they are not cheating until you can prove it. You can't just assume that everyone is racist and try to correct it by a judgement call. It WILL lead to mistakes, misjudgements, ... and racism.

Do you think a racist recruiter, once forced to interview a black candidate, will no longer be racist? No, so it won't fix the problem. What it will do is force the majority of recruiters, who are not racist, to waste more time interviewing people they wouldn't have otherwise interviewed because that person got a bye on account of their race. If they allocate a given amount of time to the recruitment process then that means someone else who is not of the 'chosen' race, who would have been interviewed, will be disregarded. That's discrimination plain and simple.


This is the pinnacle of poor reactionary politics, a painfully simplistic linear thought process, trying to tackle the symptoms of a problem with a single sentence of legislation rather than address the true cause- which is that someone is loading the dice. Loading them yourself is so blatantly not the correct solution.
 




Mattywerewolf

Mattywerewolf

Well-known member
Mar 7, 2012
894
Saff of the River
yxee said:
And if the dice aren't loaded in 100% of cases, I suppose absolutely nothing can go wrong from trying to meddle in the process...

No. If you discover the dice to be loaded, you throw them out of the casino. Otherwise, you must work on the grounds that they are not cheating until you can prove it. You can't just assume that everyone is racist and try to correct it by a judgement call. It WILL lead to mistakes, misjudgements, ... and racism.

Do you think a racist recruiter, once forced to interview a black candidate, will no longer be racist? No, so it won't fix the problem. What it will do is force the majority of recruiters, who are not racist, to waste more time interviewing people they wouldn't have otherwise interviewed because that person got a bye on account of their race. If they allocate a given amount of time to the recruitment process then that means someone else who is not of the 'chosen' race, who would have been interviewed, will be disregarded. That's discrimination plain and simple.


This is the pinnacle of poor reactionary politics, a painfully simplistic linear thought process, trying to tackle the symptoms of a problem with a single sentence of legislation rather than address the true cause- which is that someone is loading the dice. Loading them yourself is so blatantly not the correct solution.
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Completely agree. The answer is to encourage everyone with potential to follow the path to management and to remove any discrimination along the way, not to actively discriminate to reverse the process.
 




Dick Knights Mumm

Dick Knights Mumm

Take me Home Falmer Road
Jul 5, 2003
19,616
Hither and Thither
Mattywerewolf said:
Completely agree. The answer is to encourage everyone with potential to follow the path to management and to remove any discrimination along the way, not to actively discriminate to reverse the process.
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And this helps along that way. All is being done is that an additional person is being interviewed. Voices are heard that are not being heard at the moment. No-one has to give a job to anyone.
 






pasty

pasty

A different kind of pasty
Jul 5, 2003
30,272
West, West, West Sussex
Kieron Dyer and Titus Bramble slam 'Rooney Rule'

Kieron Dyer: “I want to be interviewed because the chairman wants to interview me,” Dyer says. “I don’t want to be interviewed because it’s filling a quota. I don’t want to be on a shortlist because football clubs are told I have to be because I’m black. I don’t agree with the Rooney Rule either.
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Titus Bramble: “I used to say at school I’m not getting this and that because I’m black, but I was 10,” Bramble said. “That is such an outdated view. I just see these figures saying there aren’t many black coaches.
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S

sir albion

New member
Jan 6, 2007
13,055
SWINDON
JBizzle said:
For Ince (who I'm certain got jobs based on his reputation - which in itself is a "leg up"), it's a convenient excuse to hide behind. For others, not so much. It's clear that there isn't enough diversity in football coaching and management, but as [MENTION=29007]Javeaseagull[/MENTION] said: "someone said there are only 14 non-white people (as they put it) with the requisite badges to be a manager". "Why" is the first question to be asked here...
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Our game is full of bloody diversity...Blacks are the minority so naturally you won't get many as managers.
The problem you'll get now is clubs who don't offer them the job will be called racists and some may employ a black manager just to make a point even though he's shite.
 




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