[Politics] Important story on the Shoreham disaster today - update, petition to stop Andy Hill flying

drew · Mar 8, 2019

Birdie Boy said:
If I was to do a loop in my plane at 2700ft knowing that the safe distance to do one was at 4000ft, I think I would be negligent. No?

True, but has anyone said it is impossible to do a loop at that height? Not defending him at all but if a pilot has done loops at that altitude before he might think he can manage it again. A comparison might be driving on a road. The recognized safe distance on a motorway is 2 seconds in the dry but if you're on the M25 you'd be hard pressed to find anyone anywhere near that distance.

dazzer6666 · Mar 8, 2019

Birdie Boy said:
If I was to do a loop in my plane at 2700ft knowing that the safe distance to do one was at 4000ft, I think I would be negligent. No?

Possibly, but that may still not mean you are guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence

Worthing exile said:
Also on the basis that 'accidents happen' who agreed that the loop could be done over a busy A27 anyway?

Think that's one question the inquest will be answering.

drew · Mar 8, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
So not this then
View attachment 105469

How do you know that the fact he was still trying to pull out of the loop didn't save more lives?

Let's say for argument's sake that he did black out and recovered as the plane is hurtling towards the ground, what else other than trying to pull up would you expect a pilot to do?

symyjym · Mar 8, 2019

drew said:
And what else would he try and do to avoid the crash. You make it sound like his thought process was something along the lines of 'if I pull the nose up I give myself a chance'. That's a massive assumption. There are numerous examples of pilots of stricken jet planes who have stayed with their plane to try and steer them away from built up areas at the cost of their own lives.

If he was intent on saving only himself I would suggest the ejector seat was his best bet.

Ejecting is quite a commitment if you believe you can finish a manoeuvre with your aircraft intact. I doubt that he would have had the time to even think about the people below because saving himself and the plane would have probably saved everyone as a default. Staying with his aircraft was not a sign of his heroism in this instance. He didn't have a choice in the timeline once he was committed to the trick.

tiberious · Mar 8, 2019

KLF said:
I'm amazed. Assume there is not an equivalent of "death by dangerous driving"? If someone had caused 11 deaths in a car because of the way they drove surely they'd be serving time?

The fact that causing Death by dangerous driving is not classed as manslaughter shows the difference in the point to prove in the offence. Also in death by dangerous driving you judge the standard of driving against a competent driver...

The Clamp · Mar 8, 2019

tiberious said:
The fact that causing Death by dangerous driving is not classed as manslaughter shows the difference in the point to prove in the offence. Also in death by dangerous driving you judge the standard of driving against a competent driver...

They’re very tricky ones. With driving you have to rule whether it’s dangerous driving or careless driving. God knows where you start with fighter jets.

Personally, I think attempting a manouvre like that over an A road on a Saturday afternoon in the summer is ****ing madness bordering on criminal and anyone involved in clearing that decision should be banged up. But common sense and the law aren’t the same thing.

Lenny Rider · Mar 8, 2019

Beach Hut said:
Why has the post from Lenny Rider been deleted ?

The NSC Illuminati?

drew · Mar 8, 2019

symyjym said:
Ejecting is quite a commitment if you believe you can finish a manoeuvre with your aircraft intact. I doubt that he would have had the time to even think about the people below because saving himself and the plane would have probably saved everyone as a default. Staying with his aircraft was not a sign of his heroism in this instance. He didn't have a choice in the timeline once he was committed to the trick.

Don't disagree with your comments, I was just making a point about the Pavillionaire implying he was 'only' trying to save himself when he knows nothing of his mindset at the time!

tiberious · Mar 8, 2019

The Clamp said:
They’re very tricky ones. With driving you have to rule whether it’s dangerous driving or careless driving. God knows where you start with fighter jets.

Personally, I think attempting a manouvre like that over an A road on a Saturday afternoon in the summer is ****ing madness bordering on criminal and anyone involved in clearing that decision should be banged up. But common sense and the law aren’t the same thing.

And this is the point it was as far as I'm aware the only air show over land. For how many years had it been going and people had been gathering in huge crowds by the side of the road. Looking back as you say the decision to allow the show over a busy road is madness. This is a truly tragic incident and my thoughts go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

Hungry Joe · Mar 8, 2019

As others on here have too, I have seen (and felt to an extent) first hand the affects of this tragedy on a family and friends. It was / is a tragedy, and one that no single person will ever know the full causes of, and where all the culpability lies, for certain. The fact that a thread on it has once again descended into point-scoring for some is distasteful in my opinion, but that's t'internet for you.

Beach Hut · Mar 8, 2019

Lenny Rider said:
The NSC Illuminati?

It would appear so

Leekbrookgull · Mar 8, 2019

tiberious said:
And this is the point it was as far as I'm aware the only air show over land. For how many years had it been going and people had been gathering in huge crowds by the side of the road. Looking back as you say the decision to allow the show over a busy road is madness. This is a truly tragic incident and my thoughts go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

Fair points,but just go to Skiathos airport and you will see the same,and like myself and others here on this board will say the same.

dazzer6666 · Mar 8, 2019

The Clamp said:
They’re very tricky ones. With driving you have to rule whether it’s dangerous driving or careless driving. God knows where you start with fighter jets.

Personally, I think attempting a manouvre like that over an A road on a Saturday afternoon in the summer is ****ing madness bordering on criminal and anyone involved in clearing that decision should be banged up. But common sense and the law aren’t the same thing.

tiberious said:
And this is the point it was as far as I'm aware the only air show over land. For how many years had it been going and people had been gathering in huge crowds by the side of the road. Looking back as you say the decision to allow the show over a busy road is madness. This is a truly tragic incident and my thoughts go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

The inquest will be looking at this.

GT49er · Mar 8, 2019

tiberious said:
And this is the point it was as far as I'm aware the only air show over land.

Fairford is quite a long way from the sea! They usually have a flying aerobatic display at Goodwood too, at the Festival of Speed.

Pavilionaire · Mar 8, 2019

drew said:
How do you know that the fact he was still trying to pull out of the loop didn't save more lives?

Let's say for argument's sake that he did black out and recovered as the plane is hurtling towards the ground, what else other than trying to pull up would you expect a pilot to do?

Jesus, you're missing my point. I'm not commenting on how his manouevre ended, I'm saying the suggestion that he a) blacked out but then b) recovered just in time to make any sort of recovery seems a bit of a stretch.

dejavuatbtn · Mar 8, 2019

Guilty or not, in prison or not; this guy is going to have to live with the fact that he’s responsible for what happened to these people and their families. Many years ago a mate of mine ran over and killed a little girl who from nowhere had run out into the road. It was no way his fault but it never left him and he died young, indirectly as a result.
Like others, I have my doubts over the outcome of this case but we haven’t heard the last of it.

Sheebo · Mar 8, 2019

Gwylan said:
When I did jury service, the judge warned us not to listen to friends/relatives offering opinions on the cases we were trying as "as no-one could possibly comment unless they'd sat in court and heard every minute of evidence."

It's really, really good advice

One to bear in mind for the Adam Johnson thread and various precious threads like Ched Evans. Very good advice.

Easy 10 · Mar 8, 2019

sheebo said:
One to bear in mind for the Adam Johnson thread and various precious threads like Ched Evans. Very good advice.

We were forbidden by the judge to discuss the case during the trial, full stop. If it came to light that we had been talking about it with anyone, we could be found in contempt of court.

Sheebo · Mar 8, 2019

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is 11 innocent people lost their lives in a tragic accident. Nothing will change that. I guess even the most empathetic person wouldn’t understand unless you were in the exact same situation as some of the poor families of the victims but if it was me in their position, Im pretty sure I wouldn’t be gunning for blood. Guilty or not guilty changes nothing of what happened and who sadly isn’t here today. Please be careful what you write people.

drew · Mar 8, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
Jesus, you're missing my point. I'm not commenting on how his manouevre ended, I'm saying the suggestion that he a) blacked out but then b) recovered just in time to make any sort of recovery seems a bit of a stretch.

Well that's not the way your initial posts seem to allude to. You seem to be making the point that he was just trying to save himself. Apologies if that's not the case but you might need to think a bit more how you word things.

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[Politics] Important story on the Shoreham disaster today - update, petition to stop Andy Hill flying