[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

beorhthelm · Feb 23, 2019

drew said:
I might have worded it better. From the Which website:-

If you are a basic-rate taxpayer and were to contribute £100 from your salary into your pension, it would actually only cost you £80.

The government adds an extra £20 on top – what it would have taken in tax from £100 of your salary.

Did you read the link posted earlier?

That £5b is still from money earned by the pension pot and not the pension pot itself.

they like to put it in those terms, making it sound like you've been done a favour by having your money given to you. the "cost" is take home reference is to take home pay after tax. the main point is the government doesnt give you £20, note the total in the Which is still £100, not £120 from the earlier post.
im familar with the link, doesnt matter where the money is earned, its still >5bn redirected from us to the government, quietly behind the scenes for less fuss. dont you think it would be better for a straight increase to income tax?

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
He said he voted Remain, so if you knew he was a leaver, then that makes him a liar. Have you noticed his body language when he talks? He blinks all the time, which is well known to be a sign of lying.

Irony.

[tweet]1098592894578057220[/tweet]

JC stands on the principle that members make party policy – and the majority of them are Remainers. However, he himself is an old school socialist who opposes the sort of ‘big government’ than the EU represents. Regardless, his manifesto was and is popular and won him and the party thousands of votes and hugely increased marginals.

Bevendean Hillbilly · Feb 23, 2019

I was in Norway last year on business and, for my money, their system of welfare seems so goddamned....fair.

If you have paid in all your working life, but then need to take something out, you are compensated based on what your TOTAL Contribution has been rather than what you can expect as a new arrival or deliberately slack citizen.

Tax revenue isn’t spunked the second it appears on a balance sheet but everyone who pays in has a protected income for a year if they close your factory or whatever...therefore homelessness is almost nil among workers who get laid off etc.

Contrast this with us. You pay a million pounds in tax but if your job goes, sorry mate, you’re in the queue with Shamima Begum and whoever else needs a few quid.

If this new group was talking like that. I’d listen, and so would a million others.

Thunder Bolt · Feb 23, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
JC stands on the principle that members make party policy – and the majority of them are Remainers. However, he himself is an old school socialist who opposes the sort of ‘big government’ than the EU represents. Regardless, his manifesto was and is popular and won him and the party thousands of votes and hugely increased marginals.

And the Remainers feel let down by his prevaricating and talking about General Elections, ignoring the elephant in the room. That's why they are leaving.

seagulls4ever · Feb 23, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
He said he voted Remain, so if you knew he was a leaver, then that makes him a liar. Have you noticed his body language when he talks? He blinks all the time, which is well known to be a sign of lying.

Excessive blinking ≠ lying.

Liars might have a tendency to blink more, but it does not mean that someone is lying. There are other associations with excessive blinking too. For example, when under stress or cognitive load (which of course might or might not be related to lying).

Can you think of anything which might be mentally demanding and stressful for the leader of the Opposition?

In any case, there is other evidence to suggest blinking occurs less during the act of lying, depending on the situation. Science is often not clear-cut, and this is particularly true when it comes to the many nuanced variables of human behaviour.

You insinuation of Corbyn's character based upon his blinking rate is laughable. Gutter politics, really.

Bold Seagull · Feb 23, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
They increased those thousands of votes because a lot of people thought Labour would oppose May and her Brexit stategy. Over 150,000 Labour members have left the party in the last few months when they realised that Corbyn is as much of a Brexiteer as the Tories.

Where on earth did you get these figures from? I know the Mirror had a leaked report that said 50k since Dec 2017. :shrug:

Bold Seagull · Feb 23, 2019

Bevendean Hillbilly said:
I was in Norway last year on business and, for my money, their system of welfare seems so goddamned....fair.

If you have paid in all your working life, but then need to take something out, you are compensated based on what your TOTAL Contribution has been rather than what you can expect as a new arrival or deliberately slack citizen.

Tax revenue isn’t spunked the second it appears on a balance sheet but everyone who pays in has a protected income for a year if they close your factory or whatever...therefore homelessness is almost nil among workers who get laid off etc.

Contrast this with us. You pay a million pounds in tax but if your job goes, sorry mate, you’re in the queue with Shamima Begum and whoever else needs a few quid.

If this new group was talking like that. I’d listen, and so would a million others.

Corbyn’s manifesto is pretty much centrist for them.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
And the Remainers feel let down by his prevaricating and talking about General Elections, ignoring the elephant in the room. That's why they are leaving.

The man is in an impossible situation though. All-out opposition to Brexit would then alienate those that backed leaving the EU in the 2016 referendum. For what it’s worth, I’d prefer Corbyn to oppose Brexit and push for a second referendum, however I’m a realist and I know that it won’t happen. Either way, I’d certainly rather Corbyn be given the chance to be PM to put a stop to the ruinous austerity dogma that has helped wreck the country for the best part of a decade.

beorhthelm · Feb 23, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
JC stands on the principle that members make party policy – and the majority of them are Remainers. However, he himself is an old school socialist who opposes the sort of ‘big government’ t...

couldnt go on, thats gold.

Sorrel · Feb 23, 2019

Bevendean Hillbilly said:
I was in Norway last year on business and, for my money, their system of welfare seems so goddamned....fair.

If you have paid in all your working life, but then need to take something out, you are compensated based on what your TOTAL Contribution has been rather than what you can expect as a new arrival or deliberately slack citizen.

Tax revenue isn’t spunked the second it appears on a balance sheet but everyone who pays in has a protected income for a year if they close your factory or whatever...therefore homelessness is almost nil among workers who get laid off etc.

Contrast this with us. You pay a million pounds in tax but if your job goes, sorry mate, you’re in the queue with Shamima Begum and whoever else needs a few quid.

If this new group was talking like that. I’d listen, and so would a million others.

Almost every other country in Europe has this kind of welfare plan and a much more sensible health insurance system, too. I wish we did. One of the problems we've had in the UK with free movement is that our benefit system is not contribution based, meaning that anyone can turn up and get the same benefits as someone that has been paying in for their whole life.

If we reformed our benefit system in line with other countries in the single market we would have a lot less bother about free movement of people and therefore there would be much less concern about being the EU generally. Norway is in the single market and has free movement of people between it and the rest of the EU.

The problem is that the second attempts to reform the benefit system people will jump on every single thing that goes wrong as evidence that it doesn't work and demand we go back to the old system. The previous system was set up in the 1940s (with no housing benefit then - that started officially in 1982, though there was some help before then) in a world where there was no free movement of people. We would need ID cards too, for the new system to work, just like everyone else does in Europe.

GT49er · Feb 23, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
They increased those thousands of votes because a lot of people thought Labour would oppose May and her Brexit stategy. Over 150,000 Labour members have left the party in the last few months when they realised that Corbyn is as much of a Brexiteer as the Tories.

They might have lost some who didn't think Corbyn was as opposed to Brexit as they would have liked, but they lost thousands more Labour leavers who were concerned that a Labour government would try to weasel out of Brexit (not that half the Tory party wants to do that to!)

Hastings gull · Feb 23, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
The man is in an impossible situation though. All-out opposition to Brexit would then alienate those that backed leaving the EU in the 2016 referendum. For what it’s worth, I’d prefer Corbyn to oppose Brexit and push for a second referendum, however I’m a realist and I know that it won’t happen. Either way, I’d certainly rather Corbyn be given the chance to be PM to put a stop to the ruinous austerity dogma that has helped wreck the country for the best part of a decade.

So, you are a realist, are you? Whilst the country does have its problems, (which country doesn't?) I think it is far from wrecked. For that, you need to look at a certain country in South America -that is what is wrecked is about.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2019

Hastings gull said:
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So, you are a realist, are you? Whilst the country does have its problems, (which country doesn't?) I think it is far from wrecked. For that, you need to look at a certain country in South America -that is what is wrecked is about.

Half of maternity units closed at some point last year
Teaching crisis
Nursing crisis
Policing crisis
Armed forces crisis
Wages in decline
Windrush
Private prison crisis
Private train companies defrauding the state
Private nhs providers defrauding the state
Private academies closing shop
Waiting lists for nhs services at record levels
A/E waiting times at record highs
People dying in hospital corridors
Social care crisis
Food bank useage at record high
Child poverty at record high
Huge rise in homelessness
House building at lowest levels since 1920’s

Hastings gull · Feb 23, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
Half of maternity units closed at some point last year
Teaching crisis
Nursing crisis
Policing crisis
Armed forces crisis
Wages in decline
Windrush
Private prison crisis
Private train companies defrauding the state
Private nhs providers defrauding the state
Private academies closing shop
Waiting lists for nhs services at record levels
A/E waiting times at record highs
People dying in hospital corridors
Social care crisis
Food bank useage at record high
Child poverty at record high
Huge rise in homelessness
House building at lowest levels since 1920’s

Oh, do me a favour - have you prepared all these crises in advance? What is the armed forces crisis, as a matter of interest? And has no one ever defrauded before, or has this just started in the last couple of years?

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2019

Hastings gull said:
Oh, do me a favour - have you prepared all these crises in advance? What is the armed forces crisis, as a matter of interest? And has no one ever defrauded before, or has this just started in the last couple of years?

You mean apart from the funding and recruitment crisis since 2010? Your deflections and ‘what-aboutery’ indicate that you have no real answers or justifications to the above. The aforementioned shows how much damage the Tories have inflicted upon this country, whilst the “I’m alright jack” brigade lap up the anti-Corbyn spiel instead of holding the government to account. It is time for a change.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 23, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
You mean apart from the funding and recruitment crisis since 2010? Your deflections and ‘what-aboutery’ indicate that you have no real answers or justifications to the above. The aforementioned shows how much damage the Tories have inflicted upon this country, whilst the “I’m alright jack” brigade lap up the anti-Corbyn spiel instead of holding the government to account. It is time for a change.

I can't be bothered to go through all your aforementioned 'claims' but here are just a few facts and figures that say you are telling porkies.

Housebuilding hits highest level since the crisis: Number of new UK homes rose 2% to 222,190 in 2017-18

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...ding-hits-highest-level-financial-crisis.html

Average earnings increased by 3.4 per cent in the year to December, the highest for a decade, outpacing inflation.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rowth-wages-employment-data-ons-a8786121.html

[

I suppose you have to tell whoppers to justify voting for a bunch of marxist, anti-west incompetents who have overseen a crisis in antisemitism, bullying and purges of non believers... splitting the once proud Labour party.

drew · Feb 23, 2019

beorhthelm said:
they like to put it in those terms, making it sound like you've been done a favour by having your money given to you. the "cost" is take home reference is to take home pay after tax. the main point is the government doesnt give you £20, note the total in the Which is still £100, not £120 from the earlier post.
im familar with the link, doesnt matter where the money is earned, its still >5bn redirected from us to the government, quietly behind the scenes for less fuss. dont you think it would be better for a straight increase to income tax?

Get rid of VAT and then apply a flat rate of tax across all income, eg earnings, dividends, capital gains, corporation tax, interest etc would make best sense but I'm not sure that you would really want that. I wonder what that rate would equate to?

The point I'm making is that if the government are letting you keep the tax element that you would normally pay that is effectively money not being used by the treasury. Is that so hard to understand?

Leekbrookgull · Feb 23, 2019

Will be interesting to see if we get a few more Sunday/Monday however surely the next vote could really 'hit the fan' ? As for all these snowflakes/by-election fans of late where have you been for the last thirty years ? Simple unless you are voted as an Independent from Parish up to Westminster and beyond once you jump ship its a by-election.

beorhthelm · Feb 23, 2019

drew said:
Get rid of VAT and then apply a flat rate of tax across all income, eg earnings, dividends, capital gains, corporation tax, interest etc would make best sense but I'm not sure that you would really want that. I wonder what that rate would equate to?

The point I'm making is that if the government are letting you keep the tax element that you would normally pay that is effectively money not being used by the treasury. Is that so hard to understand?

i would absolutly want flat tax, rate to be be confirmed. so we agree there. simplify and make it open, not hidden. the relief is budgeted for, the treasury never sees it, could be raided too if we want to cease encouraging pension savings. the tax is defered to the future when pension turns to income.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
I can't be bothered to go through all your aforementioned 'claims' but here are just a few facts and figures that say you are telling porkies.

Housebuilding hits highest level since the crisis: Number of new UK homes rose 2% to 222,190 in 2017-18

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...ding-hits-highest-level-financial-crisis.html

Average earnings increased by 3.4 per cent in the year to December, the highest for a decade, outpacing inflation.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rowth-wages-employment-data-ons-a8786121.html

[

I suppose you have to tell whoppers to justify voting for a bunch of marxist, anti-west incompetents who have overseen a crisis in antisemitism, bullying and purges of non believers... splitting the once proud Labour party.

Research has shown new-build housing completions in England between 2010 and 2019 are set to be approximately 130,000 per year. That is significantly lower than the 147,000 of the 2000s or 150,000 of the 1990s, and half of the level seen in the 1960s and 1970s.

The UK had the weakest wage growth of any G7 country over the past decade, according to the OECD, despite eight years of economic growth and strong employment. Wages are still worth a third less in some parts of the country than a decade ago, according to several reports.

Research undertaken in December 2018 by by SMC and JRF revealed that, in our society:*

- Child poverty has been rising since 2011/12;*
- 4.1 million children are living in*poverty, a rise of 500,000 in the last five years;*
- Four million workers are living*in poverty –a rise of more than half a million over five years; and*
- In-work poverty has been rising even faster than employment, driven almost entirely by increasing poverty among working parents.*
-
Even the UN has been forced to look at the levels of extreme poverty in our country.

So no, it’s not ‘porkies’ in the slightest. Sometimes I despair at the mindless gullibility that allows people to continually fall for the austerity con.

Even after 9 years of economic ruination, wage repression, spectacularly missed targets, massive public service cuts, councils going bankrupt, deliberate under-investment in infrastructure, and collapsing living standards, people are willing to mindlessly let the government off the hook or simply pretend it isn’t happening

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[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

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