[Albion] To those questioning our tactics

WATFORD zero · Jan 31, 2019

APACHE said:
Some good points but an old saying springs to mind, Rome wasn't built in a day, but CH has had 1 and a half seasons to sort out most of those problems and we still see the same tactics used. Players have been added to the squad at a cost but the tactics and the performances home and away have not changed much, we've even dropped points v teams we beat or drawn against at the Amex. That run of narrow wins earlier in the season is masking afew problems and have no doubt lose the next 2 home games and we are trouble. The defense has been our strong point but if it starts to break what's plan B?

The significant tactical change in the middle of this season has passed you by completely ?

Machiavelli · Jan 31, 2019

Seagull4Ever said:
Throughout this season i’ve constantly read comments from people slating Chris Hughton’s tactics suggesting that when we go in front we sit back and defend to try and protect a lead, which frequently costs us. The debacle of last night has to be a new low point for this season and I’m now fed up reading these same comments about Hughton’s tactics. There is absolutely no way he is instructing his team to sit back and defend and I wish people would wake up and recognise the real problem.

In simple terms, our big weakness this season, which shines through in our away form is that we are simply not good enough at retaining possession and protecting the ball. Last night this was more blatantly obvious than ever. We take 2 glorious chances and go into a 2-0 lead but at half time I never felt comfortable and that was because we still conceded far too much possession to Fulham in the first half. This continued in the second and their early goal gave them them the lift they needed. If you give opposing teams the ball so cheaply and allow them to dominate possession like Fulham did last night then naturally any team is going to create a lot of goal scoring opportunities. When this happens it forces us back and we find ourselves defending for our lives and all too often we find ourselves singing the praises of Ryan, Dunk and Duffy because they have been outstanding at putting their bodies on the line to protect our goal - but last night was the straw that broke the camels back and even they caved in. We didn’t change our tactics to sit back and defend - we were pegged back because we failed to keep the ball long enough and allowed Fulham to dominate possession. This has been the theme in the many away games I’ve been to and it’s even been apparent in home games too (West Ham & Wolves immediately spring to mind where we cling on to a 1-0 lead).

Most notably in away games we seem to frequently lack composure on the ball, it’s almost as if we get a bit overawed and we panic at times and give the ball away far too easily. This is why our away form is so poor. We end up being dominated by the opposition for large periods of the game and they create a lot of chances as a result. When we go in front in a game this is usually because we’ve taken a good opportunity to score but this can often mask the fact that we’ve still not been great in keeping possession and when we find ourselves under the cosh people think we’ve sat back.

So people need to stop suggesting this is a tactical approach - CH has a far bigger job on his hands trying to coach our team to be better in possession, learn how to keep the ball and take the sting out of the game when needed. Sometimes we can appear lazy when I see a player in possession and he has very few options to make a pass because there is so little movement from more than one player trying to make themselves available to receive the ball, and other times you see a forward make a great run and yet the player on the ball fails to spot an early pass and then gets caught in possession.

In short, we do not sit back and defend a lead, we invite pressure on ourselves because we can’t retain possession for long enough.

Rant over - I feel better now !

Great post, which has prompted much agreement, but I'll have a slight difference. I'm not too sure that the two issues you're highlighting are discrete. Retaining possession is more difficult for us when we're sat back, and there aren't those passing options available or, certainly, forward passing options. Often the great run a player makes that you refer to requires an excellent pass, and we haven't got enough players capable of doing that, and there is an inherent caution in CH's approach.
This isn't a dig at CH, he's the club's best manager, and has got us to where we are now. I suspect that if we want to improve on where we are now (which I fear will be extremely difficult to achieve) then we will need to do what you suggest, which is learn to retain the ball better, and that involves (what CH often refers to as) being more expansive. By expansive, I take that to mean both spreading out and up the pitch, while also retaining possession. The wider question of whether CH is the right man to make us into a team that retains possession better still needs to be addressed.
Another point you made that I will slightly depart from is that possession doesn't automatically translate into chances, or decent chances.
The ideal scenario would be that CH secures us as a lower middle club over the next season or two incrementally improving the squad and playing style, when he gets the Ireland gig, and we get some up-and-coming hotshot manager, but it's unlikely to happen. In short, be careful what you wish for.

Bold Seagull · Jan 31, 2019

I've been saying for some time our accuracy of passing does need to improve. It can be tiny things, just a foot the wrong side of a player in full flight puts enough of a stop on a counter attack, as well as more obvious losing the ball completely. This pressure of ball retention in this league and the speed of it, has led to many of the team being conservative with their passing. I really see only Gross and Propper regularly putting passes into spaces for people to break into, rather than to feet or in the area the receiver is in already.

The change in tactics that has past [MENTION=18580]APACHE[/MENTION] by with Propper playing in a more forward role almost alongside Gross, with Locadia cutting in from the left, has made us more attacking, and in all honesty, against West Ham and Fulham we have looked better away from home (if you subtract 30mins from the Fulham game)...

Will be interesting how we set up on Saturday, because there is a lot to cope with from Watford, and I'll be interested to see whether Propper reverts to a position deeper alongside Stephens, or whether he is able to get forward more as he has been especially at home.

Mo Gosfield · Jan 31, 2019

Stephens gave the ball away with his first three touches on Tuesday night. The lack of pace through midfield means that recovery from misplaced passes is very difficult and often results in the opposition having a break against only our back-line. It goes without saying that better ball retention is vital if we are to play a version of the quick, simple and accurate football that the leading teams play.
We need more pace and more creativity in midfield. As a group, Stephens, Propper and Gross all lack pace. Even Kayal looks quick compared to them. None of them are ' box to box ' players and that is what we are sorely lacking. I hope Bissouma can give us an extra dimension but he is still maturing.
Ball retention is about skill and ability and we have to face facts that an upgrade in personnel is the only way that this is really going to improve.

Not Andy Naylor · Jan 31, 2019

APACHE said:
Some good points but an old saying springs to mind, Rome wasn't built in a day, but CH has had 1 and a half seasons to sort out most of those problems and we still see the same tactics used. Players have been added to the squad at a cost but the tactics and the performances home and away have not changed much, we've even dropped points v teams we beat or drawn against at the Amex. That run of narrow wins earlier in the season is masking afew problems and have no doubt lose the next 2 home games and we are trouble. The defense has been our strong point but if it starts to break what's plan B?

I agree with the above and most of the OP and have, indeed, made the point before that it's all very well praising Dunk and Duffy but we should be worried by the sheer number of opportunities the rest of the team is giving them to perform heroics. Sooner or later it was inevitable that a day would come when even they couldn't hold out. And this inevitably brings me back to another of my favourite subjects - the refusal to sign any established Premier League players.

I know that there's a premium on home-grown players, or signings from other English clubs, but when almost every new signing has to adapt to the demands of British football before he's ready to play a full part, then perhaps there's an element of false economy here. We need a Steve Sidwell, someone with know-how and leadership qualities, who knows the refs, knows the away grounds, knows what it takes to steady the ship when things are going wrong away from home, maybe gets in a few of his teammates' faces when they're losing focus. Someone who knows that you don't have to cower on your own 18-yard line when you're playing Chelsea, because you've seen teams get results by having a go at them. Maybe even played in one of those teams. The last outfield player we signed from a Premier League club was Glenn Murray.

Of course, the problem here is the risk to the wage structure*, the 'no d*ckheads' policy and all the rest. But while the club insists on looking for bargain signings abroad, we may just have to accept that there will be games when our present cosmopolitan team of pleasant metrosexuals doesn't fancy it in the freezing rain on a cold Tuesday night in Fulham, let alone Stoke.

* but I wouldn't mind Danny Drinkwater on loan from Chelsea for the rest of the season, especially when Andone is playing. Drinkwater looks for the early pass, which few of our present midfield players do.

Kneon Light · Jan 31, 2019

The attitude of SOME of our fans baffles me.
At the start of the season many fans were accusing Chris Hughton of being too negative and defensive. Many at this time were saying they wished we would go for games more and be more attacking even if it did mean we conceded more goals as it would be more entertaining. This is now exactly what we are doing.
Before Jan 1 we scored just 7 away goals.
Hughton changed tactics significantly and it has led to us being more of an attacking threat (We scored 8 away goals in January alone!!) yet fans are still saying he is too negative and that he is using the "same old tactics". Yes we are now letting in more goals but as stated above a lot of fans were saying they would prefer higher scoring games even if we lost. I just don't get what some of our fans have against probably the best manager we have ever had.
We do need to find a balance between attack and defence and I don't think we are necessarily there yet but accusing him f using the "same negative tactics" is just pathetic and lazy.

Charlies Shinpad · Jan 31, 2019

Didn't CH say at the beginning of the season we will be playing a high pressing game this season ?
Haven't seen a lot of this at all unless we were chasing the game is Chelsea and Arsenal to name two.

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Icy Gull · Jan 31, 2019

When we are pressed we tend to go backwards with the ball often ending up with the keeper having to hoof the ball downfield and back to the opposition. Somehow we need to pass forward to players moving into space when we are pressed far more often than we do

Miximate · Jan 31, 2019

Almost without exception, I have noticed how our opponents will look to press us high up the pitch and apply pressure as they know we aren't that good at ball retention

doogie004 · Jan 31, 2019

*Gullsworth* said:
Well said.......now dive for cover

Did hughton react to there sub no at half time no when they scored there first no 2nd no losing 3-2 yeh ok then I better had clueless !

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Cadiz Seagull · Jan 31, 2019

doogie004 said:
Did hughton react to there sub no at half time no when they scored there first no 2nd no losing 3-2 yeh ok then I better had clueless !

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Pardon?

dingodan · Jan 31, 2019

Seagull4Ever said:
Throughout this season i’ve constantly read comments from people slating Chris Hughton’s tactics suggesting that when we go in front we sit back and defend to try and protect a lead, which frequently costs us. The debacle of last night has to be a new low point for this season and I’m now fed up reading these same comments about Hughton’s tactics. There is absolutely no way he is instructing his team to sit back and defend and I wish people would wake up and recognise the real problem.

In simple terms, our big weakness this season, which shines through in our away form is that we are simply not good enough at retaining possession and protecting the ball. Last night this was more blatantly obvious than ever. We take 2 glorious chances and go into a 2-0 lead but at half time I never felt comfortable and that was because we still conceded far too much possession to Fulham in the first half. This continued in the second and their early goal gave them them the lift they needed. If you give opposing teams the ball so cheaply and allow them to dominate possession like Fulham did last night then naturally any team is going to create a lot of goal scoring opportunities. When this happens it forces us back and we find ourselves defending for our lives and all too often we find ourselves singing the praises of Ryan, Dunk and Duffy because they have been outstanding at putting their bodies on the line to protect our goal - but last night was the straw that broke the camels back and even they caved in. We didn’t change our tactics to sit back and defend - we were pegged back because we failed to keep the ball long enough and allowed Fulham to dominate possession. This has been the theme in the many away games I’ve been to and it’s even been apparent in home games too (West Ham & Wolves immediately spring to mind where we cling on to a 1-0 lead).

Most notably in away games we seem to frequently lack composure on the ball, it’s almost as if we get a bit overawed and we panic at times and give the ball away far too easily. This is why our away form is so poor. We end up being dominated by the opposition for large periods of the game and they create a lot of chances as a result. When we go in front in a game this is usually because we’ve taken a good opportunity to score but this can often mask the fact that we’ve still not been great in keeping possession and when we find ourselves under the cosh people think we’ve sat back.

So people need to stop suggesting this is a tactical approach - CH has a far bigger job on his hands trying to coach our team to be better in possession, learn how to keep the ball and take the sting out of the game when needed. Sometimes we can appear lazy when I see a player in possession and he has very few options to make a pass because there is so little movement from more than one player trying to make themselves available to receive the ball, and other times you see a forward make a great run and yet the player on the ball fails to spot an early pass and then gets caught in possession.

In short, we do not sit back and defend a lead, we invite pressure on ourselves because we can’t retain possession for long enough.

Rant over - I feel better now !

Amen brother.

It really is noticable too. So often, for reasons I cannot understand, I see the ball come down out of the air to one of our players in our final third and they hoof it away or try to get rid in a panic as fast as possible, usually giving up possession in the process. I think to myself, you had time, you had space, just control the ball stay calm and find a simple pass. It really does my head in.

Perhaps bizarrely, the one player who doesn't seem to have this problem, for all his faults, is Locadia. Weird.

SeagullDubai · Jan 31, 2019

Knocky's Nose said:
I maintain we've got a solid defence (Fulham aside..) and I agree that movement off the ball is an issue, especially in the later stages of a game.

Are the players not fit enough to keep up the intensity of the PL for a full 90 minutes? Do they just stop being arsed? Are they not being coached into this mentality? Who knows.. I don't.

If you look at the successful teams in the PL, they all move around trying to be the recipient of a pass rather than just waiting for the player with the ball to run into a position where it can be passed to them.

This..... And very apparent against West Bromwich. Lost count of the times CH has said we need to be better in the final third. not going to happen given the mobility and off the ball movement off our front runners (I use the word runners loosely)

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Dick Knights Mumm · Jan 31, 2019

Seagull4Ever said:
In short, we do not sit back and defend a lead, we invite pressure on ourselves because we can’t retain possession for long enough.

I have not been to sufficient away games for too much weight to be given to my comment - but part of the problem I notice is the lack of movement. To retain possession players need a teammate to pass to and ours seem rarely on the move. Not just forward - although our wingers do not often invite the ball over the top - but just in space away from opposition players. Poyet talked about having to be brave in possession - and he was right. But you do need passing options.

jamie the seagull · Jan 31, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
Will be interesting how we set up on Saturday, because there is a lot to cope with from Watford.

Bissouma for Gross
AK for March

zefarelly · Jan 31, 2019

F**king A bloody 1 wasn't it.

AmexRuislip said:
I'm actually amazed to read a decent post, that has no swear words, not even being substituted by @#*!?.
Well done to you

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jan 31, 2019

Seagull4Ever said:
Throughout this season i’ve constantly read comments from people slating Chris Hughton’s tactics suggesting that when we go in front we sit back and defend to try and protect a lead, which frequently costs us. The debacle of last night has to be a new low point for this season and I’m now fed up reading these same comments about Hughton’s tactics. There is absolutely no way he is instructing his team to sit back and defend and I wish people would wake up and recognise the real problem.

In simple terms, our big weakness this season, which shines through in our away form is that we are simply not good enough at retaining possession and protecting the ball. Last night this was more blatantly obvious than ever. We take 2 glorious chances and go into a 2-0 lead but at half time I never felt comfortable and that was because we still conceded far too much possession to Fulham in the first half. This continued in the second and their early goal gave them them the lift they needed. If you give opposing teams the ball so cheaply and allow them to dominate possession like Fulham did last night then naturally any team is going to create a lot of goal scoring opportunities. When this happens it forces us back and we find ourselves defending for our lives and all too often we find ourselves singing the praises of Ryan, Dunk and Duffy because they have been outstanding at putting their bodies on the line to protect our goal - but last night was the straw that broke the camels back and even they caved in. We didn’t change our tactics to sit back and defend - we were pegged back because we failed to keep the ball long enough and allowed Fulham to dominate possession. This has been the theme in the many away games I’ve been to and it’s even been apparent in home games too (West Ham & Wolves immediately spring to mind where we cling on to a 1-0 lead).

Most notably in away games we seem to frequently lack composure on the ball, it’s almost as if we get a bit overawed and we panic at times and give the ball away far too easily. This is why our away form is so poor. We end up being dominated by the opposition for large periods of the game and they create a lot of chances as a result. When we go in front in a game this is usually because we’ve taken a good opportunity to score but this can often mask the fact that we’ve still not been great in keeping possession and when we find ourselves under the cosh people think we’ve sat back.

So people need to stop suggesting this is a tactical approach - CH has a far bigger job on his hands trying to coach our team to be better in possession, learn how to keep the ball and take the sting out of the game when needed. Sometimes we can appear lazy when I see a player in possession and he has very few options to make a pass because there is so little movement from more than one player trying to make themselves available to receive the ball, and other times you see a forward make a great run and yet the player on the ball fails to spot an early pass and then gets caught in possession.

In short, we do not sit back and defend a lead, we invite pressure on ourselves because we can’t retain possession for long enough.

Rant over - I feel better now !

You missed a salient point a couple of hundred words into your epic borefest.

For long periods at home also, we lack composure on the ball. Which suggests a serious upgrade on midfield is required to maintain the big bucks investment in PL football. Lose that and everything falls away apart from the core support. Which is somewhere between 10k and 15k.

super-seagulls · Jan 31, 2019

doogie004 said:
Did hughton react to there sub no at half time no when they scored there first no 2nd no losing 3-2 yeh ok then I better had clueless !

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Cadiz Seagull said:
Pardon?

Allow me to translate, I speak a bit of Croydon.

Did Hughton react to their sub? No.
At half time? No
When they scored their first goal? No.
2nd goal? No.
When losing 3-2? Yeah, ok then. I had better react now.
Ignore my ramblings I’m clueless!!

doogie004 · Jan 31, 2019

super-seagulls said:
Allow me to translate, I speak a bit of Croydon.

Did Hughton react to their sub? No.
At half time? No
When they scored their first goal? No.
2nd goal? No.
When losing 3-2? Yeah, ok then. I had better react now.
Ignore my ramblings I’m clueless!!

Ramblings or not it’s true
And it’s Wisborough Green not Croydon

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APACHE · Jan 31, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
The significant tactical change in the middle of this season has passed you by completely ?

For me there was no, significant tactical change in the middle of this season, what CH did was move Gross deeper in m/f and allow Propper to attack more, yet again a case of just changing the players round.The change in wingers was a forced change and to be frank Propper should have been in the role he's got now at the beginning of the season, if not last season..

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