Junior doctors to escalate industrial action to all-out strike next month

El Presidente said:

But there's still a shortage of doctors though, which doesn't suggest they are overpaid.

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Waynflete said:

I know what you mean. I'd just say to remember that these are people who dedicate their lives to saving lives and helping people. Imagine how bad things must be for them to justify doing this.

The government, meanwhile, will be hoping for chaos so that the tide of opinion swings against the doctors.

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BLOCK F said:

Disgraceful action by the BMA and the junior doctors.
Under no circumstances can this action be justified.
Make no mistake this is about politics and money,not patient safety.
The offer from the Government is pretty fair and any disagreements over fine details do not warrant this kind of action.
Patient safety, my arse, they won't even provide emergency cover.

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My wife is a junior doctor, so let me take a stab at explaining, as I understand it...

The objections to the current proposals are in large part because of a total (justified) lack of trust in the government on behalf of doctors.

As you know, this is all part of the government's plan to have a '7-day NHS' for non-emergency care. (We already have a 7-day NHS for emergency care). This idea is based on a misuse of statistics to assert wrongly that there are more deaths at weekends because of staffing.

To achieve a 7-day NHS for non-emergency care you have to do one of three things:

1. Pay for more doctors, nurses and other staff to increase care by two days per week - which would cost a lot more money (and the trained staff don't exist because there are already shortages in key areas).
2. Get existing staff to work for longer hours to cover the extra two days - which is unsafe and unfair on those existing staff.
3. Spread the working hours of existing staff more thinly over the week, to cover the extra two days - which will reduce the quality of care.

Now, the government is claiming that it can deliver a 7-day NHS with no significant increase in total budget, with no doctor being paid less, with no-one having to work longer hours and no reduction in quality of care. That so clearly doesn't add up, and doctors have been rightly suspicious of these proposals as a result.

Lo and behold, when NHS Employers released some sample rotas for junior doctors under the new contract, they were found to be full of things like claiming a day immediately after a night shift was a 'day off', despite the doctor having worked for probably about ten hours on that day, from midnight to 10am, and having to return to work that evening. Also, breaking promises on not working consecutive weekends. They are also very worried that, although current junior doctors are being offered this contract, there is no protection for doctors in a few years' time from an updated contract that would be even more unacceptable. In short, what the junior doctors are being asked to do is not fair or safe - and when the government says they won't be paid less or work more hours they simply don't believe it.

Fundamentally, this is about a government trying to push through an uncosted and ill-thought-out manifesto pledge, not listening when the experts expected to deliver it tell them it won't work, carrying on regardless, then spinning against doctors by claiming it's all about pay - which is absolute rubbish. It is also absolute nonsense that changing the junior doctor contract will deliver 7-day NHS, of course, because they will also have to change the contracts of everyone else working in the NHS, too.

The end result is likely to be fewer doctors recruited, more doctors leaving the NHS to work abroad or in private practice, worsening shortages in key specialist areas like paediatrics, an overall worse service - and ultimately a recourse to more private medicine to fill the inevitable gaps, which will be more expensive for all concerned, especially the taxpayer.

So, support our junior doctors! They genuinely don't want to strike. They have been backed into a corner, and have judged that this is worth doing in the short term in an attempt to stave off something that would be much worse for patients in the long term.

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BLOCK F said:

There are huge numbers of young people who want to get into medical school, despite the awful working conditions that the BMA and young doctors say the Government wants to impose on the profession.

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El Presidente said:

Perhaps they want to do something good for society?

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El Presidente said:

With both sides to the argument putting out such measured, well informed and eloquent arguments to support their case, who on earth should one believe?

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BLOCK F said:

There are huge numbers of young people who want to get into medical school, despite the awful working conditions that the BMA and young doctors say the Government wants to impose on the profession.

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El Presidente said:

With both sides to the argument putting out such measured, well informed and eloquent arguments to support their case, who on earth should one believe?

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Diego Napier said:

Really? What is this huge number? I wonder why the government don't provide more places then? Perhaps instead they would rather import doctors from overseas although with such a large ongoing shortfall in GP numbers that doesn't seem to work too well does it? I wonder if that's something to do with their terms and conditions?

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BLOCK F said:

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

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El Presidente said:

Perhaps they want to do something good for society?

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wellquickwoody said:

Perhaps they should go into politics then, heaven knows we all keep complaining about our politicians? Must be easier to make improvements there than take the tough, underpaid, overworked life of a doctor......

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BLOCK F said:

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

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gordonchas said:

Places at medical school are oversubscribed by 10 to 1. There is no shortage of would-be doctors.

Contrary to the current meme there is actually an over-supply of doctors in the UK. See this link from 4 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

And for all the hand-wringing about privatisation, GPs are in the private sector, and they always have been since the inception of the NHS.

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Diego Napier said:

Really? What is this huge number? I wonder why the government don't provide more places then? Perhaps instead they would rather import doctors from overseas although with such a large ongoing shortfall in GP numbers that doesn't seem to work too well does it? I wonder if that's something to do with their terms and conditions?

Click to expand...

gordonchas said:

Places at medical school are oversubscribed by 10 to 1. There is no shortage of would-be doctors.

Contrary to the current meme there is actually an over-supply of doctors in the UK. See this link from 4 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

And for all the hand-wringing about privatisation, GPs are in the private sector, and they always have been since the inception of the NHS.

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BLOCK F said:

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

Click to expand...

BLOCK F said:

Disgraceful action by the BMA and the junior doctors.
Under no circumstances can this action be justified.
Make no mistake this is about politics and money,not patient safety.
The offer from the Government is pretty fair and any disagreements over fine details do not warrant this kind of action.
Patient safety, my arse, they won't even provide emergency cover.

Click to expand...

Indurain's Lungs said:

GPs are not in the private sector - they are essentially contracted by the NHS but completely under conditions and payments determined by the NHS. Salaried GPs are employed by practices but under the conditions and contract set out by the NHS. This is a fairly recent phenomenon over the last 20 years.



Actually, the more senior GPs managed to keep this deal. Junior doctors will now retire at state pension age (predicted to be 68-70 by the time of their retirement) and pensions have been scaled back with contributions increased. GP partners will now pay 14.3% of income as the employer and up to 14.3% as the employee of gross income - its a good pension but its definitely paid for now with no option of early retirement without losing most of the pension. (FWIW I am not a GP, nor would I do their job for twice the money!). As for the hours - the evidence suggests they are working very long hours to keep up - the average 60% part time GP is working over 40 hours a week. Insurance fees are now around £8k a year as well.

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worthingseagull123 said:

People getting tired of all this "we're in this together" crap.

Hopefully all public workers will strike for a fair deal.

Bring this government to its knees

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