Asbestos in neighbours' roof

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Blue3 said:
All asbestos can and does kill there is no safe asbestos It's use was banned in the UK in 1980 but so much was used it's everywhere and we are very likley to come into contact with asbestos on a dailey basis, most of this contact is completly safe but for some the risk is much greater.
It's an amazing material which can be used as a powder and mixed with other materials and can even be woven, it's used to add strength, fire and heat retardancy being light was added to materials just to reduce weight. Asbestos can be found in the most unlikely of places from car break pads, sound muffling under kitchen sinks, some plastics, cookers, storage heaters, toasters, wall and ceiling plaster, construction boards, electrical fuse boards, oven gloves, fire blankets, floor and wall tiles, fire places, chimneys, flues, ventilation systems, filters, Irons the list goes on and on first discovered and used by the Romans Until it's banning in 1980 that we will be coming across the stuff regularly for the rest of our lives.

Asbestos if not in a fibrous state left alone is probably safe so in most cases being around living with asbestos is not a particular danger but if it is in a fibrous state ie damaged so that fibres are released as dust in a confined space then it's very dangerous.

It wasn't actually banned until 1999, although in practice virtually no-one was using it. Don't understand what you mean about 'asbestos not in a fibrous state'. That is the point about asbestos it is always in a fibrous state, although it is usually mixed in with other products...

Goldstone1976 · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
Even less of risk than AC, although Asbestos Removal Contractors probably wouldn't agree as they would love to charge you hundreds of pounds to remove them.

Vinyl floor tiles of a certain era (1950's to 1970's) contained a very small (less than 5%) amount of white asbestos but it was very firmly bound into the matrix.

Theoretically I suppose you could generate some airborne fibres by removing the tiles with a rotary grinding wheel but if you lift them with a scraper it wont be a problem.

Rarely they were fixed to the slab with asbestos containing mastic but as you can imagine mastic is also a very non-friable material, a scraper and water hand spray will sort it out.

Thanks very much...

Blue3 · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
Urban Myth, I have been working with asbestos surveys, management and removal for over 30 years. The THEORETICAL ability of a single fibre to start carcinogenesis is based upon in vitro studies.

In actual fact you have to have significant exposure for this to happen (which means inhalation of hundreds of thousand or even millions of respirable sized fibres).

Also very unlikely that your Neighbours Roof is anything except Asbestos Cement (AC) which usually only contains Chrysotile (White) Asbestos, by far the least harmful form and is 85-90% Portland cement with 10-15% asbestos filler.

Having done a lot of air sampling around AC removal projects the levels of fibre release were normally undetectable, especially when the work was in the open air such as roof removal.

PM me if you want any more information.

I also have worked with Asbestos managment and its removal for over 30 years and dispute a couple of points no asbestos is safer than any other asbestos it's all dangerous the way it is used its condition and location are the important things and the fact one fibre has only been confirmed as being carcinogenic in a Labority just means one fibre has not been attributed to any direct deaths as finding one fibre as part of any autopsy would be almost impossible so in these cases death would be attributed to cancer cause Unknown

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Goldstone1976 said:
Thanks very much...

You are welcome, there is a huge amount of scaremongering about asbestos from people who want to make money from it.

The facts are that most Asbestos Containing Materials are perfectly safe (and probably carrying out a useful function such as fire protection) especially if not disturbed.

This doesn't suit the Asbestos Removal Industry of course...

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Blue3 said:
I also have worked with Asbestos managment and its removal for over 30 years and dispute a couple of points no asbestos is safer than any other asbestos it's all dangerous the way it is used its condition and location are the important things and the fact one fibre has only been confirmed as being carcinogenic in a Labority just means one fibre has not been attributed to any direct deaths as finding one fibre as part of any autopsy would be almost impossible so in these cases death would be attributed to cancer cause Unknown

Don't agree, if you look at the epidemiology, Blue and Brown Asbestos are far more likely to cause cancers, in particular mesothelioma, than White asbestos.

I didn't say it wasn't dangerous but the risk from most ACMs is hugely overblown from an Industry that has sprung up to 'Manage' it...

AnotherArch · Aug 24, 2017

Goldstone1976 said:
Cheeky side question please?

When I bought a place 18 months ago, the surveyor said that I have tiles on my sitting room floor (under the carpet) that "probably contain asbestos". I'm about to put new underlay and carpet in that room. Ok to strip the existing stuff out and just put new underlay and carpet on top, or should I have an asbestos survey (and possible/probable? removal of tiles) first?

Whilst I agree with all the recommendations, LordLush1972 did not take the disposal aspect far enough. Technically you should not put the tiles in the bin, but double bag them in polythene and take them to a council tip that accepts asbestos waste. The disposal activities are the only legalities for removal of asbestos by you in your own home.

Blue3 · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
Don't agree, if you look at the epidemiology, Blue and Brown Asbestos are far more likely to cause cancers, in particular mesothelioma, than White asbestos.

I didn't say it wasn't dangerous but the risk from most ACMs is hugely overblown from an Industry that has sprung up to 'Manage' it...

Their are three reasons white asbestos appears less dangerous

1. It is used in smaller quantities when mixed I've 10-15% Poertand Cement that blue or brown asbestos.
2. White asbestos is usually suspended within another binding medium ie cement this binds the fibres rendering them safe.
3. White asbestos fibres are larger than blue or brown as such less likley to be ingested.

However my response is

1. Although white asbestos is used in smaller percentages in any one item, white asbestos is used far more it is estimated that up to 80% of all asbestos contains material contain the white asbestos.
2. True white asbestos that is encapsulated within a medium is a lower risk but that risk can be negated once the medium is drilled cut.
3. Again true white asbestos fibres are larger they are also very brittle and can break into much smaller bits and as you are far more likley to come across white asbestos on a daily basis drilling holes cutting the asbestos into dust the risk just keeps on rising

The World Health Organisation looked at the risk between white and other forms of asbestos, analyses reveal it was not possible to draw conclusions concerning the relative potency of chrysotile and amphibole asbestos (they are as dangerous as each other)

The number of times I have seen people working at home hacking plaster off walls covered in dust having not used PPE there noses and mouth covered in dust who when they blow their nose at the end of the day find they have breathed in loads of it and let's say just 10% of that dust contained white asbestos held at 10-15% suspension that means they have breathed in 1% asbestos dust straight into there lungs plus asbestos ingested through the mouth through breathing and swallowing add further dangers.

happypig · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
As are most of mine at Jakarta Towers, you are more in danger of falling off your stepladder than getting an asbestos related disease when drilling through AC soffits.

I doubt it, I was hanging out of the upstairs window

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

In regards to white asbestos it is generally accepted that as a 'serpentine' mineral the fibre morphology (curly) is totally different to all the other forms of 'amphibole asbestos' (they form long straight needles) and the clearance time via the bodies defence mechanisms is vastly quicker.

All the studies I have seen back this up including the epidemiological studies of workers so exposed

The 'hacking off plaster' scenario assumes that there is asbestos in the material in the first place - very, very rare in my experience. Most white asbestos went into AC. In addition people don't breathe asbestos 'straight into their lungs' as the bodies defence mechanisms remove most of it.

I'm sure this thread is becoming boring to most NSCers, perhaps we should have a talk away from this forum via PM?

Merdalfthewizard · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
In regards to white asbestos it is generally accepted that as a 'serpentine' mineral the fibre morphology (curly) is totally different to all the other forms of 'amphibole asbestos' (they form long straight needles) and the clearance time via the bodies defence mechanisms is vastly quicker.

All the studies I have seen back this up including the epidemiological studies of workers so exposed

The 'hacking off plaster' scenario assumes that there is asbestos in the material in the first place - very, very rare in my experience. Most white asbestos went into AC. In addition people don't breathe asbestos 'straight into their lungs' as the bodies defence mechanisms remove most of it.

I'm sure this thread is becoming boring to most NSCers, perhaps we should have a talk away from this forum via PM?

On the contrary, I'm finding it most informative. I'm in the building trade and this is far more interesting than any Asbestos awareness course I've been on

Whitterz · Aug 24, 2017

Merdalfthewizard said:
On the contrary, I'm finding it most informative. I'm in the building trade and this is far more interesting than any Asbestos awareness course I've been on

Same. I went on one couple of years ago, the teacher scares you shitless about it. I've been very cautious about where I'm drilling holes for cables, or general poking about anyway. I did some electrical work at a school recently. The caretaker showed me the asbestos survey before I started work. He told me not to drill the artex ceilings (I wouldn't have done anyway) . He said a teacher last year had been pinning up Xmas Decs with drawing pins into the ceiling. The classroom had to be closed off, and asbestos contractors called in to check for fibres.
Honestly

Motogull · Aug 24, 2017

In his 1997 book, “The Art of the Comeback,” President Donald Trump claimed asbestos is “100 percent safe, once applied.”

Well, that's settled that then.

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Motogull said:
In his 1997 book, “The Art of the Comeback,” President Donald Trump claimed asbestos is “100 percent safe, once applied.”

Well, that's settled that then.

Just because the Donald has said it doesn't make it untrue.

Once applied, sealed and kept in good condition by proper management ACMs are 100% safe.

If badly managed, poorly maintained and subjected to disturbance they may be 100% unsafe!

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Merdalfthewizard said:
On the contrary, I'm finding it most informative. I'm in the building trade and this is far more interesting than any Asbestos awareness course I've been on

Cheers, amongst my Consultancy Site Work I ran Asbestos Training Courses (Awareness/Surveying/Management) for many years.

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Whitterz said:
Same. I went on one couple of years ago, the teacher scares you shitless about it. I've been very cautious about where I'm drilling holes for cables, or general poking about anyway. I did some electrical work at a school recently. The caretaker showed me the asbestos survey before I started work. He told me not to drill the artex ceilings (I wouldn't have done anyway) . He said a teacher last year had been pinning up Xmas Decs with drawing pins into the ceiling. The classroom had to be closed off, and asbestos contractors called in to check for fibres.
Honestly

Exactly what I was talking about, absolute nonsense and not risk assessment based, the asbestos contractors must have loved it!

Blue3 · Aug 24, 2017

jakarta said:
In regards to white asbestos it is generally accepted that as a 'serpentine' mineral the fibre morphology (curly) is totally different to all the other forms of 'amphibole asbestos' (they form long straight needles) and the clearance time via the bodies defence mechanisms is vastly quicker.

All the studies I have seen back this up including the epidemiological studies of workers so exposed

The 'hacking off plaster' scenario assumes that there is asbestos in the material in the first place - very, very rare in my experience. Most white asbestos went into AC. In addition people don't breathe asbestos 'straight into their lungs' as the bodies defence mechanisms remove most of it.

I'm sure this thread is becoming boring to most NSCers, perhaps we should have a talk away from this forum via PM?

We are fundimentaly saying the same the differance is how this is being relayed onto others my message is simple to the untrained do not try to difrientiate between Blue, White or Brown asbestos as you cannot tell and given the right conditions they all will kill.
Assume the worst treat all asbestos and all suspected asbestos with the upmost caution if it's just drilling a hole for a raw plug dampen the dust down if it asbestos that needs removing seek professional advice

Notters · Aug 24, 2017

Having worked in the industry previously I believe that [MENTION=6741]jakarta[/MENTION] is spot on.

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Blue3 said:
We are fundimentaly saying the same the differance is how this is being relayed onto others my message is simple to the untrained do not try to difrientiate between Blue, White or Brown asbestos as you cannot tell and given the right conditions they all will kill.
Assume the worst treat all asbestos and all suspected asbestos with the upmost caution if it's just drilling a hole for a raw plug dampen the dust down if it asbestos that needs removing seek professional advice

I would not disagree with this but not all ACMs present the same risk and in my experience a lot of unscrupulous 'professionals' have given very poor advice regarding asbestos.

Which usually involved them subsequently making a lot of money from the situation.

jakarta · Aug 24, 2017

Notters said:
Having worked in the industry previously I believe that [MENTION=6741]jakarta[/MENTION] is spot on.

Cheers, hoping to retire from full-time work shortly although I'll be trying to pass on my experience as a Visiting Lecturer on Occupational Health & Safety at a London University for a few more years...

B-right-on · Aug 24, 2017

Whitterz said:
Same. I went on one couple of years ago, the teacher scares you shitless about it. I've been very cautious about where I'm drilling holes for cables, or general poking about anyway. I did some electrical work at a school recently. The caretaker showed me the asbestos survey before I started work. He told me not to drill the artex ceilings (I wouldn't have done anyway) . He said a teacher last year had been pinning up Xmas Decs with drawing pins into the ceiling. The classroom had to be closed off, and asbestos contractors called in to check for fibres.
Honestly

Ker-ching.

Someone's on a very nice little earner here by taking this to extreme levels. No wonder H&S gets a bad name.

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