[Drinking] Natural wines

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 1, 2019

I have to say that was quite a testing evening. We explained our previous natural experiences but decided to give the wines a chance; we are not conviced. We both took the wine pairing, starting off with a sparkling white.....tasted like a sour cider. The best we had, and the closest to what I will call normal wine, was a Chardonnay. The red was a depressingly sour and weak liquid. They decided against giving us an unfiltered orange one. The Frau switched to cocktails. I persevered with the Chardonnay.

After the dinner we walked to a wine bar and had a couple of large glasses of normal Riesling.

Monkey Man · Apr 1, 2019

"Natural" wine is a phrase that divides opinion in the wine trade as no wine is completely natural. All involve some form of human intervention.

Some are almost wilfully funky and pungent and not aimed at everyday drinkers. Others are far less extreme and can taste really fresh and vibrant. (There are some good examples at Plateau I think.)

Some people seem to get genuinely upset by their existence but to me it just adds a bit of extra fun and colour to the world of wine.

Goldstone1976 · Apr 1, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
I have to say that was quite a testing evening. We explained our previous natural experiences but decided to give the wines a chance; we are not conviced. We both took the wine pairing, starting off with a sparkling white.....tasted like a sour cider. The best we had, and the closest to what I will call normal wine, was a Chardonnay. The red was a depressingly sour and weak liquid. They decided against giving us an unfiltered orange one. The Frau switched to cocktails. I persevered with the Chardonnay.

After the dinner we walked to a wine bar and had a couple of large glasses of normal Riesling.

Goldstone1976 said:
TL;DR? They're all going to taste like the ones you've already had and didn't like.

Note to self: Must resist temptation to say "I told you so".

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 1, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
Note to self: Must resist temptation to say "I told you so".

Fair cop!

Machiavelli · Apr 1, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
Natural wines are all organic, on top of which they don't have any additives of any description - most importantly they don't have sulphites added. They are usually, but not always, biodynamic too.

Wine-making is a hard enough art/science without making it even harder. Normally, such wines are significantly less tasty than non-natural wines as a consequence - they've just ballsed up the wine-making. You might get lucky, but frankly I doubt it.

TL;DR? They're all going to taste like the ones you've already had and didn't like.

This is where I am with natural wine. You'll get the odd stunner, but the absence of SO2 does by and large leave the overwhelming impression of sourness. My usual answer is that I'm not quite well versed enough in them to give a definitive view, but I suspect it's nonsense (although the comment from [MENTION=3418]Monkey Man[/MENTION] that they're a useful addition might also be persuasive).

Wine making has come on leaps and bounds in the past few decades, and this is largely due to a better scientific understanding of processes that enables the elimination of faults. What this can lead to is to a homogenisation of wines, which lack distinctiveness and identity. Much of this is also down to the influence that Robert Parker has had on wine, who favours blockbuster wines replete with fruit, structure and intensity. Subtlety, balance and (often) acidity fall by the wayside. If HT is drinking Riesling then it suggests not only that it happens in Germany, but also and more importantly, that HT likes acidity (which is different from sourness and imbalance) in wine, as do I.

Natural wines are a kickback against this scientific, Parker-driven homogenisation, and are about reclaiming a sense of place, diversity, etc; you could also think of it as a drive towards anti-globalisation, towards a sense of place, localism, etc. All of those features should be encouraged in my book, as wine's greatest strength is its diversity. But I think that it can be achieved through other means more effectively than the non-interventionist winemaking approach, and this is to follow the basic appellation structure that has emerged especially in Europe (although there are signs that the new world are beginning to latch on to it) for over a century. The most exalted wine regions tend to reflect that elusive notion of 'terroir', whereby the aspect, climate, soil, latitude, grape variety, etc all combine to produce something wonderful.

I could go on, and do, often, but I'll leave it there for the moment.

Machiavelli · Aug 15, 2019

Given I've had a four month-plus break from this thread, here goes again.
We've just spent a couple of weeks in France, the first of which involved traveling down the Loire, staying at Tours, (just outside) Saumur, Angers and Nantes. They're very big on natural wines in this region, and we even stumbled across a natural wine bar in Tours. Tried about four wines in there, all of which were extremely interesting and decent value.
I also visited Domaine des Roches Neuves, alongside a few other wineries, and was extremely impressed with the range of (natural) wines produced there. There was none of the sourness in any of the wines often associated with natural wines. Instead, vivacity and freshness, and wonderful depth of fruit purity, complexity, and distinctive terroir. Arguably my favourite wines were a couple of whites from Chenin Blanc, with amazing minerality and saltiness. Unfortunately none were on sale at the winery, but they were memorable.
In short, the visit upgraded my impression of natural wines.

Sir-Len · Aug 15, 2019

Shame they weren’t for sale as drinking them outside of their home environment would confirm if they were indeed of interest and decent quality rather than just suitable to the terroir and local environment. How many bottles have us Brits brought home from foreign climes to realise it only tastes ‘good’ thousands of miles away!

LlcoolJ · Aug 16, 2019

Sir-Len said:
Shame they weren’t for sale as drinking them outside of their home environment would confirm if they were indeed of interest and decent quality rather than just suitable to the terroir and local environment. How many bottles have us Brits brought home from foreign climes to realise it only tastes ‘good’ thousands of miles away!

That's so true.

"We must take a load of this home for relatives and friends, it's amazing!"

*Opens bottle at home*

"Ah. Probably best just keep it to ourselves for when we're shitfaced then....."

sydney · Aug 16, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
Natural wines are all organic, on top of which they don't have any additives of any description - most importantly they don't have sulphites added. They are usually, but not always, biodynamic too.

Wine-making is a hard enough art/science without making it even harder. Normally, such wines are significantly less tasty than non-natural wines as a consequence - they've just ballsed up the wine-making. You might get lucky, but frankly I doubt it.

TL;DR? They're all going to taste like the ones you've already had and didn't like.

Cullens wines from W.A are biodynamic . Vanya Cullen is a bit of a wizard with the vines , her wines are not cheap but they are lush.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 16, 2019

sydney said:
Cullens wines from W.A are biodynamic . Vanya Cullen is a bit of a wizard with the vines , her wines are not cheap but they are lush.

Am I correct in thinking biodynamic is, like organic, just the grapes ie not the wine making process? Ie the wine won’t taste like stomach acid? Obviously they can make natural wine with biodynamic grapes though.

Goldstone1976 · Aug 16, 2019

sydney said:
Cullens wines from W.A are biodynamic . Vanya Cullen is a bit of a wizard with the vines , her wines are not cheap but they are lush.

Cullen do indeed make some outstanding wines; the reds are particularly good imo. However, while the viticulture is both organic and biodynamic (organic being focused on what you don’t do to the land/vines, eg no chemical fertilisers/pesticides, biodynamic being focused on what you do do - in Cullen’s case famously including the application of manure wedged into cow horns - female only - at certain points in the moon’s cycle, typically when in Saturn or descending. Hmmm), most of their wines are not yet natural. They are “experimenting” with natural wines currently - they’ll probably get there, and there’s a good chance that they’ll do a great job.

Cullen are extremely competent wine makers; I remain of the view that the vast majority of natural wines are poor, largely because the wine maker has ballsed it up. That there are good ones is true, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

The average punter buying a natural wine won’t have the knowledge to know whether they’re picking up a good one or not; the odds are very heavily stacked against them currently.

vegster · Aug 16, 2019

heavysoul said:
I tend to drink wine over beer these days... I can't handle the volume anymore!! Love a good Malbec with a bit of Argentinian beef

Last year we and Mrs HS popped into Plateau when we were in Brighton... ordered a nice sounding red... and then embarrassed myself by going up to them to say it tasted off!! They proceeded to tell me it was a natural wine and that's what it's supposed to taste like!!

It was horrid... very sour as you say... and only fit for disinfecting the loo!!!

If it was Plateau, that wine probably cost you a fortune too!

Goldstone1976 · Aug 16, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Am I correct in thinking biodynamic is, like organic, just the grapes ie not the wine making process? Ie the wine won’t taste like stomach acid? Obviously they can make natural wine with biodynamic grapes though.

Yes.

Organic = what you don’t do to the soil/vines
Biodynamic = what you do do to the soil/vines
Natural = what you do/don’t do to the grapes/must (juice) from harvest through to bottling.

There are certifications available for organic and biodynamic; currently no such recognised certification exists for “natural” - it’s whatever the wine maker decides it is.

Goldstone1976 · Aug 16, 2019

Machiavelli said:
Given I've had a four month-plus break from this thread, here goes again.
We've just spent a couple of weeks in France, the first of which involved traveling down the Loire, staying at Tours, (just outside) Saumur, Angers and Nantes. They're very big on natural wines in this region, and we even stumbled across a natural wine bar in Tours. Tried about four wines in there, all of which were extremely interesting and decent value.
I also visited Domaine des Roches Neuves, alongside a few other wineries, and was extremely impressed with the range of (natural) wines produced there. There was none of the sourness in any of the wines often associated with natural wines. Instead, vivacity and freshness, and wonderful depth of fruit purity, complexity, and distinctive terroir. Arguably my favourite wines were a couple of whites from Chenin Blanc, with amazing minerality and saltiness. Unfortunately none were on sale at the winery, but they were memorable.
In short, the visit upgraded my impression of natural wines.

Noted, thanks. I’ll see if I can get my hands on some Roches Neuves to try.

Off the natural wines for a sec - did you get to try any Jacky Blot wines - in Montlouis? The man’s a genius.

Machiavelli · Aug 16, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
Noted, thanks. I’ll see if I can get my hands on some Roches Neuves to try.

You'll have to go through Caves de Pyrenes, the natural wine supplier.

Machiavelli · Aug 16, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
The average punter buying a natural wine won’t have the knowledge to know whether they’re picking up a good one or not; the odds are very heavily stacked against them currently.

Better in a wine bar, where you're offered a sample before you buy a glass though.

sydney · Aug 17, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Am I correct in thinking biodynamic is, like organic, just the grapes ie not the wine making process? Ie the wine won’t taste like stomach acid? Obviously they can make natural wine with biodynamic grapes though.

her vineyard is certified organic ....no chemical fertilisers or pesticides , each vine is individually fertilised with their own , home made , organic mix of animal & vegetable fertiliser , as far as I'm aware the entire process is chemical free and 100 % organic.....the vineyard also has it own restaurant which serves organic meals sourced from their farm ......she is a very interesting and intense woman with a real passion for her craft.....her wines are renowned and are priced accordingly..... 25 quid upwards

sydney · Aug 17, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
Cullen do indeed make some outstanding wines; the reds are particularly good imo. However, while the viticulture is both organic and biodynamic (organic being focused on what you don’t do to the land/vines, eg no chemical fertilisers/pesticides, biodynamic being focused on what you do do - in Cullen’s case famously including the application of manure wedged into cow horns - female only - at certain points in the moon’s cycle, typically when in Saturn or descending. Hmmm), most of their wines are not yet natural. They are “experimenting” with natural wines currently - they’ll probably get there, and there’s a good chance that they’ll do a great job.

Cullen are extremely competent wine makers; I remain of the view that the vast majority of natural wines are poor, largely because the wine maker has ballsed it up. That there are good ones is true, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

The average punter buying a natural wine won’t have the knowledge to know whether they’re picking up a good one or not; the odds are very heavily stacked against them currently.

yes.....that.... :lolol:

i have been there a few times ....margaret river really is one of the worlds best kept secrets ....outstanding wine , great food from paddock or ocean , endless micro breweries and craft cheese & chocolate makers , great golf courses , surf and some beautiful walks ,long or short. Trouble is now , as with anything that turns a decent dollar , the Chinese are all over it.

Albion my Albion · Aug 17, 2019

My favourite whine................................."Why is the toilet seat up again?"

Goldstone1976 · Aug 17, 2019

sydney said:
yes.....that.... i have been there a few times ....margaret river really is one of the worlds best kept secrets ....outstanding wine , great food from paddock or ocean , endless micro breweries and craft cheese & chocolate makers , great golf courses , surf and some beautiful walks ,long or short. Trouble is now , as with anything that turns a decent dollar , the Chinese are all over it.

Margaret River is my favourite Oz wine region - with one exception: if I’m having a red meat laden BBQ, then you can’t beat a Barossa.

I can’t speak to your other observations since I’ve never visited. One day I will, hopefully. I’m envious that you have!

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[Drinking] Natural wines

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