[Football] The EFL have introduced the ‘Rooney rule’

blockhseagull · Jun 9, 2019

So if we are working on the assumption that racism is the reason less BAME managers are getting jobs what is the Rooney Rule going to change ?

If they weren’t getting an interview due to racism, they certainly aren’t going to get the jobs are they, even if they have to get an interview. It’s going to become a box ticking exercise and nothing more.

I do appreciate that there is a problem, but I’m not sure there is a ‘fix’ as such.... now appointing a manager or coach is going to become an absolute minefield because interviewing a BAME manager and then him not getting the job is going to be examined and analyzed by people like John Barnes.

If anything clubs are going to hold of on sacking managers because they don’t want to be involved in the legal hassle of this rule.

Stat Brother · Jun 9, 2019

carlzeiss said:
Confused by this ruling , does it mean that suppose that a club has had 2 applicants from non BAME persons that they also have to find a token BAME peep to interview in order to be compliant ?

I assume the rule is to encourage qualified BAME applicants to apply in the first place.
It may well be the same old faces over and over again.
But I guess in time an inclusive path will be set down negating the need for the rule, in the first place.

Acker79 · Jun 9, 2019

carlzeiss said:
Confused by this ruling , does it mean that suppose that a club has had 2 applicants from non BAME persons that they also have to find a token BAME peep to interview in order to be compliant ?

I remember during the wilderness years, every time we had a vacancy there would be statements about almost 50 people applying for the job. Of manager for a lower league team, playing in converted athletics track, with very little money to spend. There will always be plenty of applicants, it will almost certainly never be just two candidates.

Knowing that every vacancy has to interview at least one BAME candidate will mean BAME wannabe managers/coaches will be more inclined to apply, with a 'just get me in the room, let me put my case forward for giving me the job' and maybe a manager who would have been overlooked shows the footballing world what he can offer and he joins the managerial roundabout that keeps giving jobs to people who have just failed their last one.

The only real question is the one about when a club has someone in mind, when they have a manager they want to appoint so weren't inviting applicants. The last time there was a discussion on the rooney rule, I seem to remember that such situations were exempt. It was only if they invited applications that the rule came into play. I don't know if that has been set with the new law.

carlzeiss · Jun 9, 2019

Acker79 said:
I remember during the wilderness years, every time we had a vacancy there would be statements about almost 50 people applying for the job. Of manager for a lower league team, playing in converted athletics track, with very little money to spend. There will always be plenty of applicants, it will almost certainly never be just two candidates.

Knowing that every vacancy has to interview at least one BAME candidate will mean BAME wannabe managers/coaches will be more inclined to apply, with a 'just get me in the room, let me put my case forward for giving me the job' and maybe a manager who would have been overlooked shows the footballing world what he can offer and he joins the managerial roundabout that keeps giving jobs to people who have just failed their last one.

The only real question is the one about when a club has someone in mind, when they have a manager they want to appoint so weren't inviting applicants. The last time there was a discussion on the rooney rule, I seem to remember that such situations were exempt. It was only if they invited applications that the rule came into play. I don't know if that has been set with the new law.

Some of the 50 probably still post here .

Triggaaar · Jun 9, 2019

Kosh said:
True, but that might be viewed as suggesting (allegedly) that BAME players don't have the required work ethic to bother with the stress, pressure and strain - as apposed to the non BAME ex pros willing to be a 'lamb to the slaughter'.

Well I personally wouldn't bother, so I have more in common with those that don't, than those that do.

Beyond this, if you had a career in league 1 and 2 I'd suggest you'd still want to or need to earn a living from the game - so why not as a manager?!?

Yes I agree that it's still a good option for those who haven't made a fortune playing at the top.

Kosh · Jun 9, 2019

Triggaaar said:
Well I personally wouldn't bother, so I have more in common with those that don't, than those that do.

Yes I agree that it's still a good option for those who haven't made a fortune playing at the top.

Fair enough and agreed

Bodian · Jun 9, 2019

So, what would we have had to do post Hughton (I know this is EFL, not PL - but it will come). We didn't invite applicants - so no-one could actually apply. How would we have had to do it?

Munkfish · Jun 9, 2019

Icy Gull said:
OK so which BAME manager has been dismissed for any other reason than the chairman thought a change was necessary?

Or to put it another way which BAME manager has not had the support that a white manager would have got?

I find it really hard to believe that they are not getting interviewed because of their colour. Accept I may be being naive about this, but which one has shown that he should be getting a better job or should have been interviewed to get one?

Are they really not even getting an interview because they are BAME?

Darren Moore?

Kosh · Jun 9, 2019

Bodian said:
So, what would we have had to do post Hughton (I know this is EFL, not PL - but it will come). We didn't invite applicants - so no-one could actually apply. How would we have had to do it?

My way of thinking would be that clubs might be able to head hunt prior to opening up the vacancy to the normal application process. So, you approach target a.) and he/she says yes, regardless of ethnicity that should be deemed fair as I'm certain any big business would deem this normal practice.... If that process drew a blank and the vacancy became 'open' to external/internal applications, then I'd like to think we'd be aiming to interview a cross section of people in order to see a fair and balanced process ultimately aiming to appoint the right person for the job (again) regardless of ethnicity.

I don't know if this is to be the case in the EFL, but it should be - if a club wants and seeks to approach a manager in work and appoints them, I think that should be permissible. When the situation is more 'open' then the R rule should, quite rightly, apply.

Triggaaar · Jun 9, 2019

Kosh said:
Fair enough and agreed

Bloody hell. Really?

Kosh said:
I will never be on message with you, never.

Triggaaar · Jun 9, 2019

Bodian said:
So, what would we have had to do post Hughton (I know this is EFL, not PL - but it will come). We didn't invite applicants - so no-one could actually apply. How would we have had to do it?

Exactly. Club decides well in advance whom they want to appoint, so they contact that person and reach agreement. They just have to say 'hold on, we can't officially name you as manager until we've found some BAME candidate that we have to interview, before rejecting them through no fault of their own'. What a farce.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jun 9, 2019

Stat Brother said:
Yeah you're quite right, nobody has been denied a managerial job in football just because they are a BAME candidate.
It's just a coincidence that over 90% of all managers are white.

A huge factor has to be down to the demographic of the hiring chairman and board shirley? No amount of enforced tokenism at interview stage is likely to change any entrenched attitudes they may hold. Apart from the potential insult to the BAME interviewee who will likely never be sure they've been interviewed on merit. That will almost certainly change as the footballing dinosaurs become extinct, but IMHO, regrettably, legislating for a managerial shortlist is a step in the wrong direction.

Justice · Jun 9, 2019

What pisses me of is the fact a manger with no experience should expect a football league job from the outset. Potter has done it the hard way and deserves his opportunity. Go and have success with a non league outfit first get used to managing before crying it’s not fair.

Stat Brother · Jun 9, 2019

Tom Hark said:
A huge factor has to be down to the demographic of the hiring chairman and board shirley? No amount of enforced tokenism at interview stage is likely to change any entrenched attitudes they may hold. Apart from the potential insult to the BAME interviewee who will likely never be sure they've been interviewed on merit. That will almost certainly change as the footballing dinosaurs become extinct, but IMHO, regrettably, legislating for a managerial shortlist is a step in the wrong direction.

Understandable.

But the current footballing dinosaurs are exactly that, the current ones, the latest in a long line of dinosaurs and most definitely not the last.

I get this looks like a tokenist gesture, but at least, for all it's issues, it's something.

We may never know if this ruling directly opens a door for someone like Marcus Bean.
He might hate the fact it's being implemented but it might, just might, get him an interview he wasn't expecting and from then on the ball is rolling.

Didn't CH interview well for the Albion, who went with Burker & Sami.
Then as soon as CH was proven right, Mr Bloom couldn't get to his front door fast enough.

Seemingly other chairmen need help in hearing different voices.

Kosh · Jun 9, 2019

Triggaaar said:
Bloody hell. Really?

Fake news

Acker79 · Jun 9, 2019

Tom Hark said:
A huge factor has to be down to the demographic of the hiring chairman and board shirley? No amount of enforced tokenism at interview stage is likely to change any entrenched attitudes they may hold. Apart from the potential insult to the BAME interviewee who will likely never be sure they've been interviewed on merit. That will almost certainly change as the footballing dinosaurs become extinct, but IMHO, regrettably, legislating for a managerial shortlist is a step in the wrong direction.

But it's not about entrenched views, That would make it seem the only reason BAME managers are so few and far between is because the owners of clubs and/or their CEOs are actively racist. Which isn't what most people seem to believe. It's about subconscious bias and institutional prejudices. These aren't about entrenched views of the establishment, but about a lack of willingness to reflect and change.When newspapers praise young white players for taking care of their parents by buying them a house when the player hits the big time, while sneering at how gauche it is that this black player has bought his mother a house (like this link) it feeds into this institutional and subconscious racism.

More pertinently, it is how players are looked at and described. Black players being praised for power and pace, being beasts; while white players are praised for vision and nous, being really intelligent players. It feeds into this idea that black players are just physical athletes, and wouldn't have the intellect to manager (a long read that covers this among other things link 2).

The subconscious bias makes them look at an application form and dismiss BAME candidates without any real thought - lingering on details they pass over with non-bame candidates, not giving them the same benefits of the doubt as non-bame candidates, not linking BAME candidates to previous non-BAME successes (e.g. Steven Gerrard did well, maybe this Jordan Henderson guy will follow in his footsteps. While refusing to consider that Keiran Dyer might follow Gerrard's path). Sure, Heskey was a great as a battering ram creating space michael owen, but what does Heskey now about tactics? So they toss that application aside. By forcing clubs to let someone in the room, it gives them the chance to put forward their footballing philosophy, show their understanding of tactics and the role of manager/coach etc and smash that stereotype of just being big and strong, or fast and powerful.

It's not about challenging entrenched views, it's about surprising people who would be open to it anyway - they just never have taken the steps that would expose them to the surprise.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jun 9, 2019

Acker79 said:
But it's not about entrenched views, That would make it seem the only reason BAME managers are so few and far between is because the owners of clubs and/or their CEOs are actively racist. Which isn't what most people seem to believe. It's about subconscious bias and institutional prejudices. These aren't about entrenched views of the establishment, but about a lack of willingness to reflect and change.When newspapers praise young white players for taking care of their parents by buying them a house when the player hits the big time, while sneering at how gauche it is that this black player has bought his mother a house (like this link) it feeds into this institutional and subconscious racism.

More pertinently, it is how players are looked at and described. Black players being praised for power and pace, being beasts; while white players are praised for vision and nous, being really intelligent players. It feeds into this idea that black players are just physical athletes, and wouldn't have the intellect to manager (a long read that covers this among other things link 2).

The subconscious bias makes them look at an application form and dismiss BAME candidates without any real thought - lingering on details they pass over with non-bame candidates, not giving them the same benefits of the doubt as non-bame candidates, not linking BAME candidates to previous non-BAME successes (e.g. Steven Gerrard did well, maybe this Jordan Henderson guy will follow in his footsteps. While refusing to consider that Keiran Dyer might follow Gerrard's path). Sure, Heskey was a great as a battering ram creating space michael owen, but what does Heskey now about tactics? So they toss that application aside. By forcing clubs to let someone in the room, it gives them the chance to put forward their footballing philosophy, show their understanding of tactics and the role of manager/coach etc and smash that stereotype of just being big and strong, or fast and powerful.

It's not about challenging entrenched views, it's about surprising people who would be open to it anyway - they just never have taken the steps that would expose them to the surprise.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. IMHO it's got nowt to do with 'subconscious bias and institutional prejudices' and everything to do with entrenched attitudes of the individual interview panels of those doing the hiring. Those people may be forced to have a BAME candidate on the interview shortlist, but while these same people are doing the hiring, any form of gerrymandering is unlikely to translate into job offers IMHO.

Acker79 · Jun 9, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. IMHO it's got nowt to do with 'subconscious bias and institutional prejudices' and everything to do with entrenched attitudes of the individual interview panels of those doing the hiring. Those people may be forced to have a BAME candidate on the interview shortlist, but while these same people are doing the hiring, any form of gerrymandering is unlikely to translate into job offers IMHO.

Maybe we'll find out, when the rule has been in place for a while. If all football owners are racist, this rule will have no impact. If it's institutional and unconscious, we'll see more BAME managers getting chances in the league.

Kosh · Jun 9, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. IMHO it's got nowt to do with 'subconscious bias and institutional prejudices' and everything to do with entrenched attitudes of the individual interview panels of those doing the hiring. Those people may be forced to have a BAME candidate on the interview shortlist, but while these same people are doing the hiring, any form of gerrymandering is unlikely to translate into job offers IMHO.

I agree with this... however i think it's important that incremental steps are being taken, and have others have alluded to, by forcing the hand of clubs in terms of shortlisting BAME candidates it makes rejecting an outstanding BAME candidate very difficult to justify. I agree there is a danger of a candidate claiming they were the 'outstanding' person for the job and got overlooked... But, if clubs get in the real world and employ independent HR consultants and points based systems during the selection process this should help prove the best person for the job was indeed employed.

Stat Brother · Jun 9, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. IMHO it's got nowt to do with 'subconscious bias and institutional prejudices' and everything to do with entrenched attitudes of the individual interview panels of those doing the hiring. Those people may be forced to have a BAME candidate on the interview shortlist, but while these same people are doing the hiring, any form of gerrymandering is unlikely to translate into job offers IMHO.

What if Progressive Town and their arch rivals Racist City are both recruiting at a similar time, from the same pool of candidates.

City turn down the BAME candidate despite him interviewing well for a ... (insert racism here)
Whereas Town employ the best candidate, who happens to be black, gain a couple of promotions and turns Town into a profitable team.
Don't you think the owners of Racist City might think differently about their next appointment?

All very airy fairy I know, but Racist City would never learn from their mistakes if they aren't ever confronted by them.

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