[Politics] Brexit

ManOfSussex · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yeah well the vote to leave was supposed to cause the sky to fall wasn't it?

But it didn't. Because saying it would was meant to scare people and put them off the idea, just like the same rubbish about No Deal is supposed to scare people and put them off the idea.

Yeah well David Cameron was supposed to invoke Article 50 on June 24th 2016 wasn't he?

Anyway, best of luck with your no deal fantasies and getting trade deals with The US and others as we become an international pariah rather than just an international basket-case at present.

Kalimantan Gull · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Try creating a law to drop the level of VAT then. Or increasing the maximum working hours allowed. Or creating a trade deal seperately with India.

The India trade deal with the EU is being held up primarily because of our demand to protect our scotch industry. With us out of the way that EU-India deal will be signed off, and on preferential terms meaning we can't get a better one with them

dingodan · May 24, 2019

Yoda said:
Sigh! Yes we can

We passed a law that allows same sex couples to be able to marry, just like Portugal passed it's own law to legalise cannabis. That's just two examples straight from the top of my head.

We do already have a few of our own trade deals outside of the EU's, we even struck up six new ones whilst Brexit has been going on.

Immigration from outside of the EU far out weighs that of from within the EU. We can control this but do not.

Yes we can write a law. But if the EU write a law, we have to obey it, whether we agree with it or not. If the EU outlawed same sex marriage we wouldn't have been able to pass that law.

"The Customs Union is an important element of the EU Single Market. Under its rules, the EU operates as a trade bloc, operating common external tariffs and customs barriers, and negotiating trade deals as one. As a member of the Customs Union, the UK is not allowed to negotiate other bilateral trade deals."
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/leaving-eu-customs-union-what-involved

Your last point is a non sequitur.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
Er...yes we can. We can veto any laws we don't like, we can trade with nations outside the EU (and do, all the time) and not only apply whatever rules we want to non-EU citizens but also put restrictions on FoM like most other EU nations already do.

Exactly but the Brexiters still keep believing the lies.

A1X · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
No, we can't do all of those things. Staying and begging to change the EU's mind, so that they will allow us to do those things, a) isn't going to happen, and b) isn't self determination. It's asking permission. David Cameron tried that. They patted him on the head and laughed him out of the room.

Do you believe everything you read in the tabloids or do you ever actually stop to analyse things for yourself?

The deal Cameron got would have put us on a completely different footing in the EU to all other member states. We already have opt-outs and exemptions coming out of our ears and this would have given us a load more. But he could have come back with a deal saying everyone gets to spend a night in bed with Natalie Portman and some people on the Brexit side would have whinged because it wasn't Scarlett Johansson.

dingodan · May 24, 2019

Kalimantan Gull said:
The problem of course is that people like you see the EU as 'them', not as 'us'. We are the EU, we are incredibly powerful, we have huge say. We don't 'beg' for changes. Whatever the **** Cameron was doing when he went over that time i have no idea.

He was asking for reforms.

You are naive if you think self determination and being subject to the decisions of others (even if you have some influence over them) is the same thing.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Exactly but the Brexiters still keep believing the lies.

Some people will always prefer comforting lies to truths which in any way challenge their worldview.

dingodan · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
Do you believe everything you read in the tabloids or do you ever actually stop to analyse things for yourself?

The deal Cameron got would have put us on a completely different footing in the EU to all other member states. We already have opt-outs and exemptions coming out of our ears and this would have given us a load more. But he could have come back with a deal saying everyone gets to spend a night in bed with Natalie Portman and some people on the Brexit side would have whinged because it wasn't Scarlett Johansson.

Yes, those are all true reasons why they wouldn't agree to reform. But they are also reasons why we don't have the kind of "influence" which makes us effectively self determined, which is the point that was being made.

I don't expect the EU to allow us to have a different set of rules to the rest. So if we want to decide for ourselves how we are going to operate and how we are going to live, then we have to leave. That's the whole point.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Try creating a law to drop the level of VAT then. Or increasing the maximum working hours allowed. Or creating a trade deal seperately with India.

Any new law proposed has to be voted through the EU Parliament. In the same way as an new law has to be voted through the UK Parliament. If you can't win people round through your level of persuasion the chances are what you want isn't a good idea.

How to create a trade deal with India? Why don't we ask the French?

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

Kalimantan Gull said:
The India trade deal with the EU is being held up primarily because of our demand to protect our scotch industry. With us out of the way that EU-India deal will be signed off, and on preferential terms meaning we can't get a better one with them

So we can't create a 1-on-1 trade deal with India then ? So we can't actually do what [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] correctly said we can't ?

A1X · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yes, those are all true reasons why they wouldn't agree to reform. But they are also reasons why we don't have the kind of "influence" which makes us effectively self determined, which is the point that was being made.

I see. So which laws do you think have been imposed on the UK against it's will?

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
Any new law proposed has to be voted through the EU Parliament. In the same way as an new law has to be voted through the UK Parliament. If you can't win people round through your level of persuasion the chances are what you want isn't a good idea.

How to create a trade deal with India? Why don't we ask the French?

Finally, we're agreed, while we remain members of the EU there are areas the UK alone can't create new laws. Good, glad we finally got a remainer to admit that.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yes, those are all true reasons why they wouldn't agree to reform. But they are also reasons why we don't have the kind of "influence" which makes us effectively self determined, which is the point that was being made.

I don't expect the EU to allow us to have a different set of rules to the rest. So if we want to decide for ourselves how we are going to operate and how we are going to live, then we have to leave. That's the whole point.

Why do you think we drive on the left, and spend pounds instead of euros?

Oh and we could always have had blue passports. That was another lie.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Finally, we're agreed, while we remain members of the EU there are areas the UK alone can't create new laws. Good, glad we finally got a remainer to admit that.

If the UK can't persuade others of the benefits of the law then it's not a good law. In the same way if a UK Government cannot convince Parliament of the benefits of a law then the same applies.

Exhibit A - the EU Withdrawal Agreement.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Finally, we're agreed, while we remain members of the EU there are areas the UK alone can't create new laws. Good, glad we finally got a remainer to admit that.

What a twisted response to that post.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
So we can't create a 1-on-1 trade deal with India then ? So we can't actually do what [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] correctly said we can't ?

The French did it.

hans kraay fan club · May 24, 2019

Kalimantan Gull said:
The India trade deal with the EU is being held up primarily because of our demand to protect our scotch industry. With us out of the way that EU-India deal will be signed off, and on preferential terms meaning we can't get a better one with them

Westdene Seagull said:
So we can't create a 1-on-1 trade deal with India then ?

If there is a trade deal agreed, that by definition IS the best deal available, can you please clarify why anybody would WANT to strike an exclusive one on weaker terms?

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
If the UK can't persuade others of the benefits of the law then it's not a good law. In the same way if a UK Government cannot convince Parliament of the benefits of a law then the same applies.

Exhibit A - the EU Withdrawal Agreement.

CAP isn't a good or fair policy ..... yet we can't get it changed because we'd always be out voted thanks to the huge number of votes from members that have farming as one of their main industries.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
CAP isn't a good or fair policy ..... yet we can't get it changed because we'd always be out voted thanks to the huge number of votes from members that have farming as one of their main industries.

Presumably because what is being proposed fails to address the needs of those nations? Or is your opinion that we should only be in the EU as long as they agree to every single demand the UK makes without question?

dingodan · May 24, 2019

It's strange that people who support Brexit get accused of not caring about "the facts".

We say we want to be self determined, the response - "We are self determined".

We say we don't want others making laws for us, the response - "Here are some laws we made ourselves".

We say we want to do trade deals ourselves, the response - "We can do that".

We say we want to do decide on immigration numbers, the response - "We allow large numbers from outside the EU."

If you are against Brexit and for remaining in the EU, then defend remaining in the EU. Argue in favor of the EU making laws we have to obey, argue in favor of not being able to make trade deals, argue in favor of not being able to control EU immigration, but don't just pretend reality is other than how it is.

That is to not care about the facts.

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