[Politics] Brexit

JC Footy Genius · Apr 9, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
So you accept that right wing nut cases are more of a threat than a few far left idiots. Because it's true as they actually kill people or try to kill people or incite others to kill people. Does Mark Francois need police protection for him and his family? Oh.....

Your Leave supporting chums include the worst of the worst of society and that's just a fact. Not an opinion.

And yet you've had to resort to insults again to make your point. I'm neither stupid nor ignorant. I'm just responding to your usual stuff.

You seemed to have missed my last questions. When did I ever suggest it's OK to murder MP's and when did I ever suggest one side is more of a threat than the other? I didn't as you know and suggesting I did is dishonest and insulting.

They are my 'chums' because they voted leave like the Remainer who killed a leave voter after an argument is your 'chum'?

Anyone claiming it's only leave supporters that threaten or inflict violence is either stupid or ignorant. I provided numerous links to prove the point.

LlcoolJ · Apr 10, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
You seemed to have missed my last questions. When did I ever suggest it's OK to murder MP's and when did I ever suggest one side is more of a threat than the other? I didn't as you know and suggesting I did is dishonest and insulting.

They are my 'chums' because they voted leave like the Remainer who killed a leave voter after an argument is your 'chum'?

Anyone claiming it's only leave supporters that threaten or inflict violence is either stupid or ignorant. I provided numerous links to prove the point.

You're in no position to talk about people missing questions when you STILL won't answer the crux of the matter.

Which form of Brexit did you vote for?

Some fight in a pub is hardly the same as the planned murder of an MP by the way but you keep trying to spin things. It's all you have left. Lies, conjecture and whataboutism.

When this whole debate started, I thought you were better than that. But I guess that's all you have left now.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 10, 2019

Plooks said:
Freedom of movement is an excellent example of what you are asking for. It gave people far more rights and power than they had before.

He really doesn’t get it does he? Part of the problem is many of these people are totally unadventurous and unimaginative and can’t see the rights they get let alone take advantage of them. They just sit there jealously sniping at others.

Lever · Apr 10, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
MPs are not delegates.

You know the Lewes constituency was 52% Remain but the MP is a member of the ERG (I don't know if she is one of the 28 quitter today) and has voted against May, for May and abstained. She does what she wants, when she wants.

Good response.
Ppf has had the issue explained to her/him again and again and again.
If ever there was an example of wilful ignorance, this is it.

Lever · Apr 10, 2019

albion68 said:
I have hardly put any facts and figures on here just my opinion and contesting the Remainers dominating this thread ,who seem to be mainly Labour supporters .

Opinion without any supporting evidence? Really?

Lever · Apr 10, 2019

clapham_gull said:
"Which remain did you vote for ?"

Now that's desperation....

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To be fair, the concept of 'Remaining as we are' is challenging for some people to understand.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Apr 10, 2019

Baldseagull said:
No, it's harder. With Canada the deal starts off with their known areas of difference and they reduce over time, we on the other hand are saying we are going to differ in ways we have not yet decided, how do plan for divergence that has no time frame or limit in it's extent?

I think what he's saying is that it took Canada 7 years to get a deal which is worse than the one that folk like him want us to throwaway in 7 minutes?

Garry Nelson's teacher · Apr 10, 2019

Brexit throws up many ironies. There's a bit of a narrative emerging that it's a national humiliation that TM is trailing around Europe 'begging' for the extension. These are often the very same people who told us that we held all the cards and with it the impression that the EU would be on its knees imploring us to make a good deal.

I hope May is successful today but she hasn't helped herself. Her 'red, white and blue Brexit' (and many of us winced when she said it) has become a 'red-faced Brexit'.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Apr 10, 2019

Plooks said:
Freedom of movement is an excellent example of what you are asking for. It gave people far more rights and power than they had before.

And the UK has had one or two notable opt-outs from Treaties...…………..But he's got a point in that the Commission has been historically charged with taking the project forward. Many of us are comfortable with the outcomes of this process. Our friend isn't. Fair enough.

nicko31 · Apr 10, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
The EU hasn't existed for the last 40 years, we have been fighting a rearguard action against ever closer union but the track always heads in one direction. Looks like you believe in a unicorn/fantasy EU membership then.

As I have said before if it was a simple (you do simple very well) binary choice the EU would already have set up a hard border in preparation for a no deal. Why are they looking for alternative solutions?

What alternative solutions?

nicko31 · Apr 10, 2019

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Brexit throws up many ironies. There's a bit of a narrative emerging that it's a national humiliation that TM is trailing around Europe 'begging' for the extension. These are often the very same people who told us that we held all the cards and with it the impression that the EU would be on its knees imploring us to make a good deal.

I hope May is successful today but she hasn't helped herself. Her 'red, white and blue Brexit' (and many of us winced when she said it) has become a 'red-faced Brexit'.

The irony of taking back control indeed

The EU never wanted this level of control over us, but the Tories have created the situation and we've now lost control.

I thought the EU were the ones that were going to blink?

Guinness Boy · Apr 10, 2019

Weststander said:
Correction, the 2017 Labour Manifesto stated very clearly that Freedom of movement will end when we leave the EU (under a Labour government).

We know that the EU will not allow a Customs Union, without freedom of movement.

So if Labour’s policy in 2017 had been for a Customs Union, the EU would’ve point blank turned it down due to no freedom of movement.

View attachment 107407

That's not really my point. Labour's manifesto states:

"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

But Labour's position has always been confused. Since I used Fact Check earlier in a different context, here are those wooly liberal elites over at Channel 4 fairly much concluding that Labour is (or was) horribly confused on Brexit.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/what-is-labour-policy-on-brexit

And the BBC is not much kinder.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46891257

But my point was not to defend Labour's position because ( [MENTION=22260]albion68[/MENTION] take notice) I won't vote for them all the time that Corbyn is leader and may never vote for them again. I'm a centerist and probably one of the few people openly supporting Chuka and hoping TIG get a foothold in to politics.

My point was that DESPITE this lack of clarity, Labour's position has always been more "soft Brexit" than the Tories and they increased their seats and share of the vote on this policy. Their policy has always been for parliament to have the final say and they increased their seats and share of the vote on this policy. Furthermore, that we live in a parliamentary democracy, not Switzerland, and that the latest iteration of parliament, in democratic terms, is governance over and above the 52% (not of the country but of a smaller turn out). Anyone who doesn't like it should have voted UKIP or insisted on their local Tory party unseating the candidate put up and replacing them with an ERG stooge.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 10, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
As I have said before if it was a simple (you do simple very well) binary choice the EU would already have set up a hard border in preparation for a no deal. Why are they looking for alternative solutions?

They have and are making preparations in case of a no deal. If you think they’re literally going to build hard infrastructure now, just-in-case, then you are even more stupid than I thought.

Go and read about what they have planned, go and read about the plans and legislation they have prepared and “put on a shelf “, as the Irish said, to roll out and quickly pass though their Parliament in case of a no deal. It all on the internet, in the papers etc.

You have used this line of argument before. It holds no water.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 10, 2019

Lever said:
To be fair, the concept of 'Remaining as we are' is challenging for some people to understand.

The concept of ' Remaining as we are ' doesn't exist.
The EU is ever evolving and the dynamic within it, ever changing. No one can put their hand on their heart and say where it will be in ten years time and if it will even still exist. The Southern Mediterranean members sit uncomfortably with their Central and Northern European allies and the political climate throughout is unsteady and ready for change.
The problem with the EU, is the people who run it. Hell bent on expansionism they have already grown too large. It should have stayed as a Central and Northern European bloc. There should be a separate Scandanavian bloc and likewise, for the Mediterranean States. More controllable, more closer allied interests. It is too diverse and too dominated by Germany and France. These two grow ever wary of the ever increasing demands on their contributions from the rest and are now, clearly reaffirming a much closer economic union, outside of other member states.
It is already changing from within. Vested interest is kicking in. Germany and France can see the signs and they are not encouraging. We will never ' Remain as we are ' There will be more and more changes within the EU. More and more changes that affect us and in particular, small businesses, in this country.

Lever · Apr 10, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
The concept of ' Remaining as we are ' doesn't exist.
The EU is ever evolving and the dynamic within it, ever changing. No one can put their hand on their heart and say where it will be in ten years time and if it will even still exist. The Southern Mediterranean members sit uncomfortably with their Central and Northern European allies and the political climate throughout is unsteady and ready for change.
The problem with the EU, is the people who run it. Hell bent on expansionism they have already grown too large. It should have stayed as a Central and Northern European bloc. There should be a separate Scandanavian bloc and likewise, for the Mediterranean States. More controllable, more closer allied interests. It is too diverse and too dominated by Germany and France. These two grow ever wary of the ever increasing demands on their contributions from the rest and are now, clearly reaffirming a much closer economic union, outside of other member states.
It is already changing from within. Vested interest is kicking in. Germany and France can see the signs and they are not encouraging. We will never ' Remain as we are ' There will be more and more changes within the EU. More and more changes that affect us and in particular, small businesses, in this country.

When I write 'we' I mean the UK as it stands in relation to the EU at this moment; negotiating from the inside not the outside. Are you saying that isn't a viable option (albeit contentious and currently not on offer)?

WATFORD zero · Apr 10, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
I can't remember a single instance when the leave campaign said we could get all the supposed benefits of EU membership with none of the obligations (have our cake and eat it) perhaps you could provide a few examples?

Guinness Boy said:
David Davis claimed we could do deals with individual EU Nations during the campaign while Liam Fox said a free trade deal with the EU would be the easiest in human history

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ign-remain-a8466751.html#explainer-question-1

Vote Leave claimed on Facebook targeted ads, among other bollocks, that we could start improving Yorkshire flood defences with the money we saved. Not trade but nothing to do with taking back control

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-vote-leaves-dark-brexit-ads

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clapham_gull said:
Quite easy to find if you look at the speeches of Gove or Fox.

On trading, he said the UK would be part of the European free trade zone with access to the European single market but "free from EU regulation which costs us billions of pounds a year".

He said the UK would also be able to arrange trade deals with countries including the US, China and India.

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JC Footy Genius said:
Yes I know plenty of silly claims on all sides, But your examples don't support Limpzero's claim that the leave campaign said we could have all the benefits of EU membership without any of the obligations.

nicko31 · Apr 10, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
The concept of ' Remaining as we are ' doesn't exist.
The EU is ever evolving and the dynamic within it, ever changing. No one can put their hand on their heart and say where it will be in ten years time and if it will even still exist. The Southern Mediterranean members sit uncomfortably with their Central and Northern European allies and the political climate throughout is unsteady and ready for change.
The problem with the EU, is the people who run it. Hell bent on expansionism they have already grown too large. It should have stayed as a Central and Northern European bloc. There should be a separate Scandanavian bloc and likewise, for the Mediterranean States. More controllable, more closer allied interests. It is too diverse and too dominated by Germany and France. These two grow ever wary of the ever increasing demands on their contributions from the rest and are now, clearly reaffirming a much closer economic union, outside of other member states.
It is already changing from within. Vested interest is kicking in. Germany and France can see the signs and they are not encouraging. We will never ' Remain as we are ' There will be more and more changes within the EU. More and more changes that affect us and in particular, small businesses, in this country.

What challenges for small businesses? I'd be interested to know what they are....

Mo Gosfield · Apr 10, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
Your Leave supporting chums include the worst of the worst of society and that's just a fact. Not an opinion.

No. That is an opinion.
You clearly have an image in your mind of a snarling, ignorant, racist thug, spouting bile and venom and ready for a fight. Not an appetising picture I admit and sadly I did see some of these characters at Wembley on Saturday! It is an obvious stereotype and a popular one.
A less obvious but equally obnoxious stereotype are the ' CRIMANABLES ' ( Chiswick.Richmond. Islington. Metropolitans. Anti Northerners. Anti Brexit. Liberal. Elite. Snowflakes ) Both stereotypes are at the edges of Brexit and Remain. One is in your face, arrogant, judgemental and unpleasant. The other is behind your back, arrogant, judgemental and unpleasant. It is a matter of opinion.

WATFORD zero · Apr 10, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
As I have said before if it was a simple (you do simple very well) binary choice the EU would already have set up a hard border in preparation for a no deal. Why are they looking for alternative solutions?

It is "obvious" there will be a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European Commission's chief spokesman has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

I'm starting to get worried about you. I'm sure you used to have a passing semblance of reality.

I wonder if all those thumbs up from Ppf and Two profs are having an effect :lolol:

nicko31 · Apr 10, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
It is "obvious" there will be a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European Commission's chief spokesman has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

I'm starting to get worried about you. I'm sure you used to have a passing semblance of reality.

I wonder if all those thumbs up from Ppf and Two profs are having an effect

Its a simple fact hard Brexit = End of the UK with multiple border fractures. But little Englanders don't care. they want a local country for local people

BTW - what happened to Bakelite, not heard from him in ages..

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