[Politics] Brexit

ManOfSussex · Feb 5, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I think the term "alternative arrangements" was sufficiently vague to allow all to attach their own desires to what the alternative might be. It's becoming a familiar tactic.

When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

JC Footy Genius · Feb 5, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
You've completely ignored my point about to what extent the lies were decisive. It would only have taken 1 Leave voter in 28 to have swung the vote to Remain. I'm pretty certain the NHS bus by itself would have grabbed the 700,000 votes that proved decisive.

That point would fall by the wayside if we'd got a Deal, but we were promised one by all the main protagonists, including May's famous "Red, White and Blue Brexit" and we aren't going to get one. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 but Parliament also voted against No Deal - it shows how clueless they are.

I honestly don't think in the 2 years since triggering Article 50 the EU have done anything that has surprised me - their actions were entirely foreseeable and predictable.

No one knows what effect particular lies on either side had on voting intentions. You say 700,000 votes swayed by the NHS bus claim I could say 500,000 votes swayed by the immediate recession and half a million more unemployed claim.

We were also told no deal is better than a bad deal although May seems intent on reneging on that promise too.

Agree with your last point I bet they can't believe their luck how weak and inept our negotiating strategy has been ... unfortunately for them and us, the deal is so poor it couldn't even get through the HoC, to no one's surprise.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 5, 2019

Plooks said:
But how would we vote out our own government!?

Did you REALLY just ask that question ? :facepalm:

JC Footy Genius · Feb 5, 2019

Plooks said:
But how would we vote out our own government!?

https://www.dummies.com/education/p...-process-works-in-the-united-kingdom/#slide-1

Bold Seagull · Feb 5, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
No one knows what effect particular lies on either side had on voting intentions. You say 700,000 votes swayed by the NHS bus claim I could say 500,000 votes swayed by the immediate recession and half a million more unemployed claim.

We were also told no deal is better than a bad deal although May seems intent on reneging on that promise too.

Agree with your last point I bet they can't believe their luck how weak and inept our negotiating strategy has been ... unfortunately for them and us, the deal is so poor it couldn't even get through the HoC, to no one's surprise.

Not the same though really. It was clear any forecast about recession / job losses was just that, a forecast. £350million for the NHS was a specific sum, not a forecast, a promise. There is a difference as you well know.

The Clamp · Feb 5, 2019

Plooks said:
But you all said that once we voted on something we should keep it. So how do we change it if we are not allowed another vote on anything!?

They are terrified of true democracy.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 5, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
Not the same though really. It was clear any forecast about recession / job losses was just that, a forecast. £350million for the NHS was a specific sum, not a forecast, a promise. There is a difference as you well know.

There is a difference. The 'forecasts' were presented as a virtual certainty with the weight of the government machine and by 'experts' whereas the £350m bus claim was made by a varied group of people who in the main wouldn't be in government.

The Clamp · Feb 5, 2019

I think normal people would have more respect for Leave voters if they admitted what we all know to be true: that they didn't know what they were voting for and that they are hoping it works out but that it doesn't look likely. Perhaps drop the blame game and accept some responsibility instead of going on the defensive. You can still salvage some dignity out of this. Many will never forgive you but you can make yourselves more credible by admitting culpability.

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I am not consumed with zeal, nor a particular fan of Juncker, but he isn't the bloody anti-christ either. Just trying to provide some balance to your blind hatred of the man. What would you have done to improve the fortunes of tiny Luxembourg?

You are because you are not being balanced, JCJ has overseen the tax evasion of billions of pounds in tax from countries by global multi nationals. This is fact, not speculation.

https://www.icij.org/investigations...global-companies-secret-tax-deals-luxembourg/

I honestly don’t see any aspect of his conduct in this regard that is justifiable, any comparison with a trade unionist is absurd. But you are still on here supporting him.

But for someone that wants a federal EU, maybe you can make the ends justify the means.

Baker lite · Feb 5, 2019

The Clamp said:
I think normal people would have more respect for Leave voters if they admitted what we all know to be true: that they didn't know what they were voting for and that they are hoping it works out but that it doesn't look likely. Perhaps drop the blame game and accept some responsibility instead of going on the defensive. You can still salvage some dignity out of this. Many will never forgive you but yuo can make yourselves more credible by admitting culpability.

You are good value, I’ll give you that.

On our way.

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The Clamp · Feb 5, 2019

Baker lite said:
You are good value, I’ll give you that.

On our way.

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You know, I know it shouldn't as you post on here but it always surprises me that you have the ability to read or write.

Baker lite · Feb 5, 2019

The Clamp said:
You know, I know it shouldn't as you post on here but it always surprises me that you have the ability to read or write.

Or vote...

On our way.

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The Clamp · Feb 5, 2019

Baker lite said:
Or vote...

On our way.

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Oh I always knew morons could vote, look at the mess we are in now.

Baldseagull · Feb 5, 2019

cunning fergus said:
You are because you are not being balanced, JCJ has overseen the tax evasion of billions of pounds in tax from countries by global multi nationals. This is fact, not speculation.

https://www.icij.org/investigations...global-companies-secret-tax-deals-luxembourg/

I honestly don’t see any aspect of his conduct in this regard that is justifiable, any comparison with a trade unionist is absurd. But you are still on here supporting him.

But for someone that wants a federal EU, maybe you can make the ends justify the means.

No, it's shitty, but it is legal, it is an extreme version of what Ireland and others do now and the EU is trying to clamp down on, which I fully support. It isn't fair, he allowed taxes to be avoided in one jurisdiction by allowing very low taxation in his jurisdiction, it is exactly the type of "competitiveness" Mogg and Farage advocate for the UK and I want to avoid, and you want to enable.
Tell me how Brexit fixes this?

Baker lite · Feb 5, 2019

The Clamp said:
Oh I always knew morons could vote, look at the mess we are in now.

Is it apparent that You don’t appreciate My vote?
I value yours, people have died for our votes.

On our way.

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The Clamp · Feb 5, 2019

Baker lite said:
Is it apparent that You don’t appreciate My vote?
I value yours, people have died for our votes.

On our way.

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Which makes it even more shameful that you used yours to sell Britain down the river.

On our way indeed .

beorhthelm · Feb 5, 2019

Baldseagull said:
No, it's shitty, but it is legal, it is an extreme version of what Ireland and others do now and the EU is trying to clamp down on, which I fully support.

just to check, because im curious of peoples views on this, you understand the only way to resolve this long term is to control taxation through EU? are we ready to accept this?

Bodian · Feb 5, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I think the term "alternative arrangements" was sufficiently vague to allow all to attach their own desires to what the alternative might be. It's becoming a familiar tactic.

Kinky Gerbils said:
The fragile Tory truce over Brexit has been shattered after Theresa May admitted there is “no suggestion” of scrapping the Irish backstop – triggering fresh anger from her anti-EU MPs.

Under pressure from business leaders in Belfast, the prime minister let slip that she will only seek “changes” to the controversial backstop – not its removal – in fresh talks in Brussels on Thursday.

The comment was seen as backtracking on last week’s Commons vote that it should be “replaced with alternative arrangements”, which Ms May had ordered Conservative MPs to support.

beorhthelm said:
this is the sort of nonsense i dont understand - it was clear that was the intention a week or two ago, to make amendments to the backstop, not get rid of it outright. some of the hardline even suggested so. but theres enough not said that some can paint their own picture. then there's something said in a different way and suddenly the canvas is ripped up. and they, all of them, have been doing this same shit for over 2 years.

I think you're wrong [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION]. You say that the intention was clear to make 'amendments' to the backstop - not to get rid of it. That is simply not what the wording of the amendment said: https://brexitcentral.com/brexit-amendment-time-look-tonight/ "“and requires the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border; supports leaving the European Union with a deal and would therefore support the Withdrawal Agreement subject to this change”. That is - replacing the backstop with something else. Replacing. Not amending.

Baldseagull · Feb 5, 2019

beorhthelm said:
just to check, because im curious of peoples views on this, you understand the only way to resolve this long term is to control taxation through EU? are we ready to accept this?

It would depend on how much control was with the EU, they already have large controls of VAT rules. We are all aware of the avoidance that large corporations are able to achieve and as long as it was an effective and fair scheme, combating that, only those like Ireland who get benefit from sheltering corporations, or the UK that do that to a degree and also get a bit uptight over sovereignty, would object.

Baker lite · Feb 6, 2019

Plooks said:
On our way where exactly?

Out of the EU, on the upside for you Plooksy lad, at least you won’t have to be conscripted into the EU army, every cloud....

On our way.

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