[Politics] Brexit

pb21 · Sep 20, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
The problem being, thanks to FPTP, the Lib Dems could have a majority government on around 38% of the vote. The rest of the 62% would be Tory ( hard leave ), Labour ( soft leave ), Brexit ( hard leave ) and SNP ( hard remain but overall they get a very small percentage of the overall vote when compared to the seats they get ). So splitting the vote percentages between the leave and remain parties could well mean well over 50% of people have voted for a leave party yet A50 would be revoked against the majority wish.

Same would happen if any party wins less than 50% of the popular vote, as will almost certainly be the case, in a GE but is able to form a Government.

The Lib Dem example would be democratic, unless you think our GE system is undemocratic?

It's why a GE to solve this issue, whilst democratic, isn't ideal.

Pretty pink fairy · Sep 20, 2019

daveinplzen said:
Your emotions rather than a global economic reality then.
Frankly I would trust the EU's (which has a large UK representation) decisions way more than the decisions of the self serving shower we currently have in power.

'We', you don't live here , carry on in your EU utopia We're leaving the EU
Regards
DF

WATFORD zero · Sep 20, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
The problem being, thanks to FPTP, the Lib Dems could have a majority government on around 38% of the vote. The rest of the 62% would be Tory ( hard leave ), Labour ( soft leave ), Brexit ( hard leave ) and SNP ( hard remain but overall they get a very small percentage of the overall vote when compared to the seats they get ). So splitting the vote percentages between the leave and remain parties could well mean well over 50% of people have voted for a leave party yet A50 would be revoked against the majority wish.

Good point, well made.

I think the only democratic way of doing it would be to have a referendum (with 2nd choice options) of three defined implementable solutions, A Customs Union deal, No deal and Remain and find out which option the democratic majority want, rather than constantly guessing at what the majority want.

Something like

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll&highlight=Triggaaar

Because, as we have seen, calling yet another GE to resolve it is just a recipe for a misinterpreted undemocratic disaster :wink:

The Clamp · Sep 20, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Would anyone really vote for someone who so clearly puts their political career ahead of what the country wants

I’d vote in nearly anyone that would revoke article 50 right now. What I predicted was going to happen is happening, people are just so desperate (rightly so) to avoid a no deal they will take anything as long as we don’t crash out. Let’s not forget the sensible goal we had a year ago; NO BREXIT in any form. It’ll break the U.K.

WATFORD zero · Sep 20, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
OK especially for you ... my preferred option (which I mentioned some time ago) was a bespoke/Canada +++ type deal. The EU already offered something along these lines some time ago. Don't tell anyone else though.

https://www.conservativehome.com/pa...al-recognition-not-ongoing-harmonisation.html

https://www.conservativehome.com/tag/alternative-brexit-white-paper/page/2#

In other news, I see that the Austrians have blocked an EU trade deal with the Mercosur bloc (Brazil Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay) after 20 years of negotiations.

https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-...iament-rejects-eu-mercosur-pact-idUSL5N26A11K

Oh, and one other thing I forgot about your Canada ++++++++++++++++++ 'deal'. Apart from the 10 years negotiation, not yet fully implemented, no services etc etc etc

How does it handle their land borders with the EU ? (A fairly significant part of the reason why we are where we are :facepalm:

)

Mellotron · Sep 20, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
The problem being, thanks to FPTP, the Lib Dems could have a majority government on around 38% of the vote. The rest of the 62% would be Tory ( hard leave ), Labour ( soft leave ), Brexit ( hard leave ) and SNP ( hard remain but overall they get a very small percentage of the overall vote when compared to the seats they get ). So splitting the vote percentages between the leave and remain parties could well mean well over 50% of people have voted for a leave party yet A50 would be revoked against the majority wish.

Agreed - Shows why a GE at this point is a total waste of time and doesn’t solve anything. The only way to sort it is a 2nd referendum with clearly defined actions.

East Staffs Gull · Sep 20, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
Good point, well made.

I think the only democratic way of doing it would be to have a referendum (with 2nd choice options) of three defined implementable solutions, A Customs Union deal, No deal and Remain and find out which option the democratic majority want, rather than constantly guessing at what the majority want.

Something like

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll&highlight=Triggaaar

Because, as we have seen, calling yet another GE to resolve it is just a recipe for a misinterpreted undemocratic disaster

But a three option referendum in the form that you have described would split the Brexit vote. Is that democratic?

ManOfSussex · Sep 20, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
OK especially for you ... my preferred option (which I mentioned some time ago) was a bespoke/Canada +++ type deal. The EU already offered something along these lines some time ago. Don't tell anyone else though.

https://www.conservativehome.com/pa...al-recognition-not-ongoing-harmonisation.html

https://www.conservativehome.com/tag/alternative-brexit-white-paper/page/2#

In other news, I see that the Austrians have blocked an EU trade deal with the Mercosur bloc (Brazil Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay) after 20 years of negotiations.

https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-...iament-rejects-eu-mercosur-pact-idUSL5N26A11K

This bespoke/Canada E=MC2 type deal that's your preferred option, what happens if the Austrians block that one after 20 years of negotiations as well?

WATFORD zero · Sep 20, 2019

East Staffs Gull said:
But a three option referendum in the form that you have described would split the Brexit vote. Is that democratic?

Have a look at the link first.

It's described very simply on the link (funnily enough, by one of our most lucid leave voters), how with second voting options, it doesn't 'split the Brexit vote'.

(I bet if it was me who described it that simply, it would be called condescending :lolol:

)

Pretty pink fairy · Sep 20, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
Good point, well made.

I think the only democratic way of doing it would be to have a referendum (with 2nd choice options) of three defined implementable solutions, A Customs Union deal, No deal and Remain and find out which option the democratic majority want, rather than constantly guessing at what the majority want.

Something like

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll&highlight=Triggaaar

Because, as we have seen, calling yet another GE to resolve it is just a recipe for a misinterpreted undemocratic disaster

We won't be having a referendum, wake up !!!
Regards
DF

WATFORD zero · Sep 20, 2019

Pretty pink fairy said:
We won't be having a referendum, wake up !!!
Regards
DF

Of course we won't petal (I'm wide awake)

So we'll be leaving on March 30th OR April 12th OR October 31st :facepalm:

And yes, I'm ready. I'm preparing exactly the same as the last 2 times. Doing absolutely nothing

And you need to be careful, [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] is making a bid for your job as Brexit village idiot :lolol:

daveinplzen · Sep 20, 2019

Swansman said:
Yeah, thats one way of putting it, if you see politics as nothing more than economy.

My "emotions" about the privatization of our infrastructure, schools, healthcare, (soon) police, natural resources etc are indeed pretty strong. My "emotions" about EU free market laws making our state unable to do i.e. like in the 60s - building a million homes to deal with homelessnes - are pretty strong. My "emotions" about EU slowly destroying the in Sweden historically very strong rights for employees vs their employers are also pretty strong. And it goes on, almost to the point where my "emotions" overload and turn in to so called "reasonable ****ing opinions".

You believe the EU is preventing the UK from building homes? Really? We are about to lose many of the employees rights that were not there previously. Its the tories who want to privatise not the EU. Youve been mugged.

Swansman · Sep 20, 2019

daveinplzen said:
You believe the EU is preventing the UK from building homes? Really? We are about to lose many of the employees rights that were not there previously. Its the tories who want to privatise not the EU. Youve been mugged.

No idea if EU is preventing the UK from building homes as I dont know enough about how you've done it in the past. But I know for certain that Sweden's "million program" could not happen under EU jurisdiction. If UK and EU have identical ideas about how society should be run, then the issues listed dont apply to you; good for you, but to us it EU membership changed society on a deeper than economical level.

A1X · Sep 20, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Okay, I may have got this one wrong in this picture, but the man is clearly a danger and an IRA sympathiser.
I can not say my source but you will have to trust me on this one.

"You wouldn't know her, she goes to another school..."

Remind me, why should we trust someone who falls for false pictures again?

A1X · Sep 20, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Would anyone really vote for someone who so clearly puts their political career ahead of what the country wants

People vote for the Tories all the time.

Publius Ovidius · Sep 20, 2019

...or the end of 2020 if the press reports this morning are correct.

I think the tremendous thing here is we are still at the initial leave stage, how we pay our debts that we signed up to etc etc....we haven’t even started to talk about trade deals or anything like that.

One guy on a radio station phone in suggested that as no one believes politicians anymore and they are enemies of the people, like judges, we need a strong leader to run us....his suggestion was Herr Farrage! Lots of people phoned in in support of this...( it was one of the LBC phone ins) This country is truly ****ed if this is what people are now staring to believe

WATFORD zero said:
Of course we won't petal (I'm wide awake)

So we'll be leaving on March 30th OR April 12th OR October 31st

And yes, I'm ready. I'm preparing exactly the same as the last 2 times. Doing absolutely nothing

And you need to be careful, [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] is making a bid for your job as Brexit village idiot

A1X · Sep 20, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
OK especially for you ... my preferred option (which I mentioned some time ago) was a bespoke/Canada +++ type deal.

What specifically about the Canada deal do you like?

A1X · Sep 20, 2019

Mellotron said:
Funny how Barclay tries to make out like Johnson is in any way in control of anything relating to negotiations.

I'm not wholly convinced he's in any way in control of doing his own shoe laces

Westdene Seagull · Sep 20, 2019

Publius Ovidius said:
...or the end of 2020 if the press reports this morning are correct.

I've only read the BBC report but it is a muddled report. The implication is us still leaving on 31st Oct but then having until the end of 2020 to thrash out the finer details of a backstop alternative.

hans kraay fan club · Sep 20, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Okay, I may have got this one wrong in this picture, but the man is clearly a danger and an IRA sympathiser.
I can not say my source but you will have to trust me on this one.

Mouldy Boots said:
Would anyone really vote for someone who so clearly puts their political career ahead of what the country wants

24 hours away from this thread, and I've missed all the fun.

You truly are an absolute gift. In three posts, you've:

1. Posted a grainy picture of A MAN WITH A BEARD, posted by a (different) random idiot on the internet, because you wanted to believe it was Corbyn, so didn't give two ****s about looking at it properly.

2. Defended that shit****ery, by intimating that regardless of the ACTUAL patent falsehood you'd posted, your point was still valid, because - well you can't tell us, - nudge, nudge, top secret information that only you are party to.

3. Used a very odd meme to attack a politician for standing BY HER PRINCIPLES, yet accusing her of quite the opposite - accusing her of exactly what your chosen leader is absolutely - ABSOLUTELY - guilty of.

Amazing.

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