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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
- Apr 5, 2014
- 23,538
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,310
I don't think "the deal" is dead at all to be honest.
The EU probably wants us out now after we pissed all over their parliament.
No deal isn't gonna happen.
The EU will shift and so will we.
The ERG and Farage will explode.
What came out this week (which is interesting) is behind the scenes the EU suggested a five year freeze on Brexit whilst we re-negotiated our position within the EU. That would have potentially given us the best cake and eat position with the EU.
We turned them down
History may say that if the referendum had been treated as simply advisory, we have got what Cameron asked for and more.
The EU probably wants us out now after we pissed all over their parliament.
No deal isn't gonna happen.
The EU will shift and so will we.
The ERG and Farage will explode.
What came out this week (which is interesting) is behind the scenes the EU suggested a five year freeze on Brexit whilst we re-negotiated our position within the EU. That would have potentially given us the best cake and eat position with the EU.
We turned them down
History may say that if the referendum had been treated as simply advisory, we have got what Cameron asked for and more.
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Baldseagull
Well-known member
He knows it will put us in the shit, the unknown part is how we dig ourselves out of it.
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
Great Panorama programme last night putting the last 3 years of turmoil into some sort of context. My 'takeaways' from this:
- the govt had no clue how to deliver Brexit
- May didn't consult the Cabinet when she launched into her 'no deal is better than a bad deal' routine (she tacked to the right to over-compensate for being a Remainer)
- she was the DUP's puppet
- the EU negotiators kept thinking that we had a cunning plan and couldn't quite believe it when we turned up without a clue; they outflanked our lot at every opportunity
- David Davies was completely out of his league and really should have stayed in the pub (in every interview he seemed to find something to laugh at, other than his own lamentable performance)
- interesting and significantly the whole programme managed to pass by without any mention of the Labour Party. I thought this was very fitting as in effect they went missing.
Overall it was a relentlessly depressing picture of how the whole thing was carried out. (It ties in with the documentary on Boris Johnson the previous night when, in his morning-after-the night-before 'victory' speech after the Referendum, he appeared to be in shock. It was similar to the reports that Trump neither expected nor wanted to win the USA presidential election. Which helps to explain the the chaos that followed on both sides of the Atlantic.) This is policy-making undertaken in a style that can be described as 'back-of-a-beermat'.
We are a total shambles of a country and (therefore) our next Prime Minister is a totally appropriate choice.
- the govt had no clue how to deliver Brexit
- May didn't consult the Cabinet when she launched into her 'no deal is better than a bad deal' routine (she tacked to the right to over-compensate for being a Remainer)
- she was the DUP's puppet
- the EU negotiators kept thinking that we had a cunning plan and couldn't quite believe it when we turned up without a clue; they outflanked our lot at every opportunity
- David Davies was completely out of his league and really should have stayed in the pub (in every interview he seemed to find something to laugh at, other than his own lamentable performance)
- interesting and significantly the whole programme managed to pass by without any mention of the Labour Party. I thought this was very fitting as in effect they went missing.
Overall it was a relentlessly depressing picture of how the whole thing was carried out. (It ties in with the documentary on Boris Johnson the previous night when, in his morning-after-the night-before 'victory' speech after the Referendum, he appeared to be in shock. It was similar to the reports that Trump neither expected nor wanted to win the USA presidential election. Which helps to explain the the chaos that followed on both sides of the Atlantic.) This is policy-making undertaken in a style that can be described as 'back-of-a-beermat'.
We are a total shambles of a country and (therefore) our next Prime Minister is a totally appropriate choice.
daveinplzen
New member
- Aug 31, 2018
- 2,846
That's unfair. They didn't go missing, May chose not to involve them in the process, they're not in government so what did they have to do with it?
Many people (including me) think that the Brexit discussions were of such national importance that the Opposition should have been involved as well but they weren't - despite the fact that Labour's Brexit spokesman is possibly the sharpest politician in the UK and could well have contributed something useful.
Agreed but the problem is our type of government - it's all about opposing rather than working together. It's why PR is the only thing that can save face for our democracy but that would require the Tories and Labour voting for Chistmas ..... and they will never want to give up the power of a single party government .... what is it they say about absolute power ?
Is it PotG?
Thrifty non-licker
Why wouldn't they, it's fun?
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
I did say 'in effect'. I think it's really had to discern what effect Labour had on the process, but happy to be corrected. (Hard to think they made a really effective Opposition with a Leader who almost literally did go missing during the referendum, an incoherent subsequent policy and internal splits. But - paradoxically - I do share your admiration for Starmer.)
Agreed.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,809
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,809
Sorry, I was in a rush to get out to dinner last night and should have answered more fully.
Now, as the last few posts have confirmed, we obviously disagree completely about who knows what would happen in the event of a 'no deal'.
But, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that in the event of 'no deal', you believe that You, Me, Johnson, and everyone else including all the experts have no idea what would happen.
So with no idea what would happen, this is the path you think we should take for the whole future of the British economy and International trade
Baldseagull
Well-known member
It seems that may be a porky.
While you raise a valid point about Corbyn's behaviour during the referendum, I'm not sure what more they could have done. They put forward countless motions about alternative approaches, all of which were defeated. The opposition doesn't really have much sway when it comes down to it.
And the programme was about the EU's interaction with the UK and Labour was excluded from the process. What were they to do? Was Starmer supposed to turn up at a meeting Davis or Raab was having and gatecrash it in an Ivanka Trump fashion?
This.
However there remains (geddit) a steadfast minority who have always seen the referendum as advisory, don't see how Brexit can be achieved without egregious problems, and therefore would not work with anyone to secure and orderly Brexit. I would be among that merry band were I an MP. The majority who feel like this are in Labour (and of course Liberal, but they are too small to count). Were I among them I would have said, if invited to join the negociating team:
"This is your mess, tories, You fix it. Make Boris the chief negociator (he 'won' the referendum) with Davies his assistant. Don't allow the ******** to resign (which they both did, from different jobs, for no sensible reason). Now trot off and deliver what you promised"
Instead, May made mistakes every step of the way (it would be quicker and simpler to list the mistakes she didn't make).
I have no time at all for Corbyn but he cannot be blamed in any way for the mess we are in. Even if he had shouted instead of whispered his views. If Starmer had been dragged into this he would simply have ended up coated in tory ordure.
I might also have been tempted to second Farrage two years ago and send him in as chief negociator. That would have found him out within hours.
It is only the likes of simple minded goons like Davies (and PPF) who think all you need to do is turn up with empty hands and say 'what are you going to give us?' while smirking who are still jubilant that we will Hard Brexit soon, and enter a golden age, while Europe gently weeps at their loss. Fortunately there are enough MPs of all persuasions with enough sense of responsibility and indeed destiny to put a stop to it.
I have always said it and still think it: Brexit won't happen.
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Not if you're a turkey.....
I get your point but I don't agree with your analysis. Parties coalesce into vague left and right blocs, and you still end up with government and opposition. The only real difference resulting from PR is there is more chance that smaller parties will get seats making it more likely that coalitions will be required. This means large mainstream parties teaming up withh smaller extreme parties. Thus in Israel we have right wing religious extreme parties part of the government bloc with Likud, or (occasionally) the hairy arse lefties in coalition with labour. It is a bit like here when May had to buddy up with the DUP (doh!). Solves nothing, gives voice to extremists, plus you NEVER get what you voted for because coalitions require compromise within the government block, and compromise means going back on election promises. Of all the things that spell suicide for a British Government (especially a labour one) is going back on promises. And elsewhere PR generates weak and unstable governments and a need for a new general election every few years (Italy). I prefer the system we have, and feel that we get the governments we deserve.