[Albion] Sam Smith Non Binary

father_and_son · Sep 16, 2019

Bulldog said:
[/B]

I agree and i do treat people with respect and do my best to understand the changing world we live in but I, like you, am not directly involved, and so will not be as up to date as those who are. That is not being wilfully ignorant.

It will take me a long time before I think calling a single person, them, is anything other than silly.

Apologies if it seemed I was directing 'willfully ignorant' at you, that was meant as a dig elsewhere.

Using other pronouns than he/she is, initially, difficult. It doesn't seem natural and takes some getting used to but if it makes the world a better, more tolerant place, the onus is on us to learn...imho.

beorhthelm · Sep 16, 2019

highflyer said:
A few people could do with spending a bit of time finding out what the 'science' actually says.
It's not straighforward at all. Here's a starter:

all the science is saying is " need more research funding" with conflation between those that have physiological conditions and those that have whimsical notions of gender identity. funny thing is after decades working on gender equality, out of leftfield we now have to accomodate a range of hitherto unknown genders. how can we have equality when we make more ways of segregating people?

Nottseagull · Sep 16, 2019

father_and_son said:
What has changed is society's acceptance that things aren't quite as straightforward as the image of a white, middle class, hetrosexual, Adam and Eve

If they were middle class then who was upper and lower class?

We should all be very grateful that they weren't gay though

the right footed denilson · Sep 16, 2019

Dunk&Disorderly said:
Personally don't see how people can be that bothered if it doesn't affect them personally, maybe it's just fear of societal change.

Innit. Let people do what they want for heavens sake. Why does it bother people so much? Either they have serious issues or nothing much to do with their time than take issue with stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

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Herr Tubthumper · Sep 16, 2019

Lenny Rider said:
Is it not all linked HT?

As someone who grew up in the 20th century don't you find this all a bit strange?

The BBC website stated last week that there are now 100 defined genders, back in the 1980's there were only 2, are the additional 98 now classed as progress?

Sex and gender are different. In short, one is biological, the other is more “role” based.

And no, I don’t find it strange. In my day I grew my hair long and identified as a headbanger.

Deleted member 2719 · Sep 16, 2019

banjo said:
In the news the other day a woman married a tree. Each to their own.

Get knotted, do you think I am some sort of sap?

JCL666 · Sep 16, 2019

sheebo said:
So, to confirm, as can’t be bothered to read through whole thread, is it now no longer a scientific fact that if you have male genitalia you’re a male, if you have female you’re a female? I’m ok with people having sex changes if they feel the need to (you have to empathise as without experiencing it personally, I assume it is indeed a thing to be ‘trapped in he wrong body’) but surely this is just PC gone mad. It’s like seeing how far people can force society to accept / attention seeking to want to be known as something other than male or female. Surely it’s science? And if you’ve had a sex change you’re now that gender?

Is anyone in here actually suggesting he’s right etc? I personally feel it’s complete publicity bollocks. (Pardon the pun)

I guess it depends on your understanding of the science regarding identity, gender and sexuality.

Can't lie I was pretty sceptical but recently I've worked with clinicians who are involved in this area. It's a pretty complex and there's a ton of research into it.

Incidentally the idea that gender neutral identity is a modern PC phenomenon is nonsense, there are lots of examples of it throughout history.

father_and_son · Sep 16, 2019

Nottseagull said:
If they were middle class then who was upper and lower class?

We should all be very grateful that they weren't gay though

They were shagging their mum though.

Palacefinder General · Sep 16, 2019

Sam Smith, THE most rock n roll name since Dweezil Zappa.

hart's shirt · Sep 16, 2019

father_and_son said:
They were shagging their mum though.

Without wishing in any way to sidetrack the main discussion point of the thread regarding gender identity or go down any theological sidelines regarding belief or authority of Scripture, the comment is worth a reply. And a biblical comment deserves a biblical response.

Sleeping with their mother was probably as unlikely then as it is today. One doesn't need to go too far into Genesis (5:4) to read that Adam "had other sons and daughters" besides the 3 sons named in Scripture - Cain, Abel and Seth. So it's far more likely that the brothers had intimacy with their sisters.

Now the question of incest obviously arises here with the subsequent shock and disgust that we feel today. Would brothers sleeping with their sisters be any morally better than with their mother? At the time, marriage was not forbidden between close relatives as the first generations of children would have had few mutations in DNA that result in disease. The mutations would have multiplied in future generations when it became too dangerous to marry a close relative because of the increased risk of disease to the Israelites and it was forbidden during the time of Moses (Leviticus 18:6-18) primarily on the grounds of health. And it's one of the main reasons why unions like these are still generally prohibited today.

father_and_son · Sep 16, 2019

hart's shirt said:
Without wishing in any way to sidetrack the main discussion point of the thread regarding gender identity or go down any theological sidelines regarding belief or authority of Scripture, the comment is worth a reply. And a biblical comment deserves a biblical response.

Sleeping with their mother was probably as unlikely then as it is today. One doesn't need to go too far into Genesis (5:4) to read that Adam "had other sons and daughters" besides the 3 sons named in Scripture - Cain, Abel and Seth. So it's far more likely that the brothers had intimacy with their sisters.

Now the question of incest obviously arises here with the subsequent shock and disgust that we feel today. Would brothers sleeping with their sisters be any better than with their mother? At the time, marriage was not forbidden between close relatives as the first generations of children would have had few mutations in DNA that result in disease. The mutations would have multiplied in future generations when it became too dangerous to marry a close relative because of the increased risk of disease to the Israelites and it was forbidden during the time of Moses (Leviticus 18:6-18) primarily on the grounds of health. And it's one of the main reasons why unions like these are still generally prohibited today.

So much less sinful when you consider brother/sister rather than mother/son. The Egyptians were quite keen on keeping it in the family too... Isn't it Cleopatra the 9th (?? - the famous one) who married (and then killed) both her brothers... who also both had the same name.

Hugo Rune · Sep 16, 2019

sheebo said:
That bits fine - so change sex and identify yourself as the chosen gender no? Surely that’s what people do!?

They do of course, but it’s just not as simple as Male or Female, just like some people have a Winkie and a Twinkie, some people don’t identify genderwise as either male or female. You can also have someone identify as, say male, but still have female sex organs (there was a BBC documentary about a very brave man who gave birth https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stori...egnant-how-one-man-gave-birth-to-his-own-baby).

In the end, there is a very ‘Brighton’ attitude of live and let live. If people follow that, I can’t see them going far wrong. I’m lucky because I’m given a lot of training in this area at work. I hope I don’t appear to sound superior as that’s really not where I’m coming from. I was very sceptical about all this a few years ago.

Billy the Fish · Sep 16, 2019

highflyer said:
A few people could do with spending a bit of time finding out what the 'science' actually says.
It's not straighforward at all. Here's a starter:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8

Even more scientifically complex is a mismatch between gender and the sex on a person’s birth certificate. Some evidence suggests that transgender identity has genetic or hormonal roots, but its exact biological correlates are unclear. Whatever the cause, organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics advise physicians to treat people according to their preferred gender, regardless of appearance or genetics.

The research and medical community now sees sex as more complex than male and female, and gender as a spectrum that includes transgender people and those who identify as neither male nor female.

This is the only way that attitudes will change, it needs to be backed up with some sort of evidence. You can't just say "he wants to be known as X, it's not hurting you" and expect people to just accept it without an explanation.
If new research is coming out to says its a grey area and we all sit somewhere on a scale rather than being one of the other it's going to take a long time to bed in to people's consciousness but it'll help if people are educated in a positive way.

Some of the belittling comments on this thread towards OP and others are just polarising the debate, anyone doing it is being daft and counter productive.

2nd point: as others have said "they, them, theirs" isn't just plural pronoun, it's used as a singular gender neutral pronoun when gender isn't known, we all do it all of the time but probably don't notice.

sussex_guy2k2 · Sep 16, 2019

I'm honestly surprised anyone cares. Let him just get on with being what he wants to be.

The Rattler · Sep 16, 2019

Hugo Rune said:
Very sad.

Hopefully those who are upset or confused will educate themselves as we should be well ahead of the curve on this.

Gender: In your head.
Sex: Between your legs.

People not always born with the same gender and sex.

Get a grip NSC, this is not BBS.

So if one was getting / giving a blowjob, would one be having 'gender'?

Bakero · Sep 16, 2019

Bladders said:
I don't think anyone is outraged, they just see it for the total laughable bollocks that it is.

If someone wants to identify as something they're not that's up to them,

Just don't expect me to be playing along though with their silly shenanigans, that's all.

Something he or she is not is up to him or her, surely?

Bakero · Sep 16, 2019

hart's shirt said:
Without wishing in any way to sidetrack the main discussion point of the thread regarding gender identity or go down any theological sidelines regarding belief or authority of Scripture, the comment is worth a reply. And a biblical comment deserves a biblical response.

Sleeping with their mother was probably as unlikely then as it is today. One doesn't need to go too far into Genesis (5:4) to read that Adam "had other sons and daughters" besides the 3 sons named in Scripture - Cain, Abel and Seth. So it's far more likely that the brothers had intimacy with their sisters.

Now the question of incest obviously arises here with the subsequent shock and disgust that we feel today. Would brothers sleeping with their sisters be any morally better than with their mother? At the time, marriage was not forbidden between close relatives as the first generations of children would have had few mutations in DNA that result in disease. The mutations would have multiplied in future generations when it became too dangerous to marry a close relative because of the increased risk of disease to the Israelites and it was forbidden during the time of Moses (Leviticus 18:6-18) primarily on the grounds of health. And it's one of the main reasons why unions like these are still generally prohibited today.

Marriage was not forbidden between close relatives at the time of Adam and Eve? Am I reading that right?

hart's shirt · Sep 16, 2019

Bakero said:
Marriage was not forbidden between close relatives at the time of Adam and Eve? Am I reading that right?

It was only during the time of Moses that it became illegal (literally 'unclean' as it was part of the Holiness Code), with health reasons being a main concern.

At the time of Adam and Eve, Cain could only have married a sister or a niece. That's pretty close!

But once again, it's right to respect the OP and keep the thread on track on the gender identity topic. (Any other questions, feel free to pm. I'll answer as best I can.)

BN9 BHA · Sep 16, 2019

albionfan37 said:
I don’t really understand why people care about such trivial shite these days? Surely he can call himself what he wants

Just a thought.
If it wasn't all over social media and the newspapers people wouldn't care or comment.

I would like to know when he's going to announce giving up singing. :wink:

Wrong-Direction · Sep 16, 2019

"What about them over there?"

"No, them isn't there."

"No, not them, them, over there!"

"Oh them, I thought you meant them! "

"No, they aren't. "

"Eh?. "

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