[Albion] The day Hughton won back the fans...but lost the backing of Bloom

sussex_guy2k2 · May 17, 2019

The Tactician said:
I’ve written an opinion piece/ tactical breakdown of the Newcastle game -discussing Hughton’s dismissal and why in Bloom’s eyes he was no longer the man to carry us forward.

You can find the whole thing HERE: https://www.northstandchat.com/cont...lost-the-backing-of-Bloom-BHAFC-1-1-Newcastle

Won the fans back? He lost me totally that day. His tactical change to something that clearly wasn't going to work the moment we saw how he'd lined them up showed a man who'd run out of ideas.

Re the tactical stuff, you've hit the nail on the head. It was painfully obvious to watch. What confounded the issue was that he made a tactical change soon after the goal but it didn't suit the personnel he had on the pitch. It wasn't until the change at half time (which really should've happened 20-25 minutes earlier) that the game started to turn around. And kudos to him for that, but this lack of decisiveness has plagued his management for years in terms of his lack of desire to adapt in game, to make proactive substitutions etc.

Bold Seagull · May 17, 2019

Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
Agree to an extent - but why play Gross out wide and have Solly on the bench?

Ultimately I think Hughton got to the point where he felt Gross was the only player he had that was going to really put the ball into a position to score from. Andone and Murray both starting, I don't think he could contemplate leaving Gross out, so the question for me on the day was why Izqueirdo and not Solly starting? :shrug:

Seasider78 · May 17, 2019

Have we ever played a real 4-3-3 and had 3 players attacking?

Whenever we claim to play that system it always looks much more like a 4-5-1 to me

For me tactically hughton had no answer for losing Groß and the new signings just did not fit into his more defensive minded system.

The Newcastle first half was a shambles and as others have said certainly not a game I would say won the fans back

The Tactician · May 17, 2019

Forster's Armband said:
I totally agree. What I suppose Bloom has looked at is that Hughton didn't seem to realise this, perhaps Ashworth helped point it out. Do you think we could have played Propper or Bissouma in a number 10 role?

It’s possible - I think Pröpper definitely has the ability, we’d have to see it happen to know if can return the numbers we need. The importance of Groß probably shouldn’t be understated, he got a very impressive amount of assists+goals in his first season. Bissouma: I think one of his main attributes is carrying the ball from deep, and his skill in tight spaces - ideally I wouldn’t want to lose that with him. He can be a PHENOMENAL player with us if he continues to improve the defensive side of his game.

The Tactician · May 17, 2019

sussex_guy2k2 said:
Won the fans back? He lost me totally that day. His tactical change to something that clearly wasn't going to work the moment we saw how he'd lined them up showed a man who'd run out of ideas.

Re the tactical stuff, you've hit the nail on the head. It was painfully obvious to watch. What confounded the issue was that he made a tactical change soon after the goal but it didn't suit the personnel he had on the pitch. It wasn't until the change at half time (which really should've happened 20-25 minutes earlier) that the game started to turn around. And kudos to him for that, but this lack of decisiveness has plagued his management for years in terms of his lack of desire to adapt in game, to make proactive substitutions etc.

All correct. My allusion to ‘winning the fans back’ was based on the general feeling of relief, that we had secured a huge point, stopped the slide and all but secured survival. My impression was that a lot of people’s desire for Hughton to go was results-based, it looked for a long time that we could go down. Also, for most seeing Hughton make the changes he did, and watching a very good second-half performance was enough to restore the faith. I felt that by full time, the 1st half tactical naivety had been overlooked somewhat -hence the article! :thumbsup:

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 17, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
Ultimately I think Hughton got to the point where he felt Gross was the only player he had that was going to really put the ball into a position to score from. Andone and Murray both starting, I don't think he could contemplate leaving Gross out, so the question for me on the day was why Izqueirdo and not Solly starting?

Fine - have Gross starting - but not out wide.

Guinness Boy · May 17, 2019

sussex_guy2k2 said:
Won the fans back? He lost me totally that day. His tactical change to something that clearly wasn't going to work the moment we saw how he'd lined them up showed a man who'd run out of ideas.

Re the tactical stuff, you've hit the nail on the head. It was painfully obvious to watch. What confounded the issue was that he made a tactical change soon after the goal but it didn't suit the personnel he had on the pitch. It wasn't until the change at half time (which really should've happened 20-25 minutes earlier) that the game started to turn around. And kudos to him for that, but this lack of decisiveness has plagued his management for years in terms of his lack of desire to adapt in game, to make proactive substitutions etc.

The first half, to me, confirmed CH had lost the plot and needed to go. The second, and the Arsenal game after, suggested he might have found it again. I was "out" post Cardiff but slightly regretted that choice after Arsenal.

The first goal was an absolute crime and all down to the tactics. I had a massive rant about it.

Thanks [MENTION=26980]The Tactician[/MENTION] great post.

symyjym · May 17, 2019

So all the opposition has to do is basically tease Murray until he gives up, and then watch the space open in front of Groß for Ritchie to run into to compete with someone who has no pace?

Nobby · May 17, 2019

The big thing for me that day was that Izquierdo was obviously not 100% fit, and Kayal was injured after about 20 minutes.

But both soldiered on until half time. Kayal should have been withdrawn immediately, it was so obvious, he was really struggling, but came back out for about 5 mins of the second half and then came off for Bissouma.

Izquierdo wasn’t withdrawn until 66 mins.

sussex_guy2k2 · May 17, 2019

The Tactician said:
All correct. My allusion to ‘winning the fans back’ was based on the general feeling of relief, that we had secured a huge point, stopped the slide and all but secured survival. My impression was that a lot of people’s desire for Hughton to go was results-based, it looked for a long time that we could go down. Also, for most seeing Hughton make the changes he did, and watching a very good second-half performance was enough to restore the faith. I felt that by full time, the 1st half tactical naivety had been overlooked somewhat -hence the article!

All fair enough. I was relieved. A better side than Newcastle, who had more to play for, would've taken us apart that first half and made the second irretrievable. He was lucky they'd not done that in my view.

In terms of my desire for him to go, I think it relates to two simple things. If you're paying to go to football to the extent that you're fully invested in your team, then you want to see results comparative to your seasonal expectations (last year I hoped for survival hence my general happiness, this year I wanted to see progress, which I don't think he's delivered) and if you're not getting results then you need to be watching good football. Ideally you have both, but one without the other is acceptable. We'd had good enough results for our first PL season and a half, but it fell off the cliff in the second half of the season. Couple that with the dour style of football and you're certainly not on to a winner. For me, I'd lost the joy in going to games (and that's coming from someone who enjoyed going to the lower league games for years) and that wasn't going to change much based on a good second half viewing here or there.

Not Andy Naylor · May 17, 2019

Some of our players are simply not up to the tactical demands of the Premier League. I've watched both Locadia and Jahanbaksh struggle with their defensive roles, tracking opponents up to a point then losing concentration or simply giving up. Ali J against Bernardo Silva and Kyle Walker on Sunday was a case in point. He did okay when he remembered what he was supposed to do out of possession but spent too much of the first half ball-watching and Bernardo had to keep reminding him where he was supposed to be. That, though, is what happens when you sign players who have been used to playing in one way and ask them to do something they're not familiar with.

As for pressing, it's tentative at best. Murray hasn't got the energy and once the defender he presses passes to a teammate, that's it. Coaches like Pochettino start the press when the goalkeeper has the ball, which is what Murray would do in one of his teams, and uses wide attackers and the number ten to press the back three or four - but that takes super-fit players. I thought when the players were saying that the pre-season had been very tough that we might improve in that area - okay, not at Pochettino levels - but if anything we look much less fitter than other teams, all over the pitch.

oneillco · May 17, 2019

Reading that makes me realise that despite 40 years of watching matches I only really have a tenuous understanding of what is happening before my eyes. I can however just about spot an offside...

sussex_guy2k2 · May 17, 2019

Not Andy Naylor said:
Some of our players are simply not up to the tactical demands of Chris Hughton. I've watched both Locadia and Jahanbaksh struggle with their defensive roles, tracking opponents up to a point then losing concentration or simply giving up. Ali J against Bernardo Silva and Kyle Walker on Sunday was a case in point. He did okay when he remembered what he was supposed to do out of possession but spent too much of the first half ball-watching and Bernardo had to keep reminding him where he was supposed to be. That, though, is what happens when you sign players who have been used to playing in one way and ask them to do something they're not familiar with.

As for pressing, it's tentative at best. Murray hasn't got the energy and once the defender he presses passes to a teammate, that's it. Coaches like Pochettino start the press when the goalkeeper has the ball, which is what Murray would do in one of his teams, and uses wide attackers and the number ten to press the back three or four - but that takes super-fit players. I thought when the players were saying that the pre-season had been very tough that we might improve in that area - okay, not at Pochettino levels - but if anything we look much less fitter than other teams, all over the pitch.

There, I've changed it for you. Also, no surprise that the first two players you picked out are wide men.

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 17, 2019

Not Andy Naylor said:
That, though, is what happens when you sign players who have been used to playing in one way and ask them to do something they're not familiar with.

So how about playing players in the positions they ARE comfortable/familiar playing in?

Or is that too simple?

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 17, 2019

Not Andy Naylor said:
if anything we look much less fitter than other teams, all over the pitch.

The 'distance covered' stats prove that to be the case

HalfaSeatOn · May 17, 2019

The gap between Ali J's heat maps summed it up for me - you buy, surely, for where he is successful and not for areas he hasn't demonstrated competence. #odd

Whitley Bayster · May 17, 2019

That's a good read. That first half was the turning point for me as well. Having travelled the length of the country to be there I couldn't believe what I was watching. The absurdity of that starting eleven and the performance that followed was the trigger for me losing my faith in Hughton. In fact very specifically it was that crap free kick in the first minute when we had the chance of an early shot on goal. A chance to get the crowd up and maybe even score and it was passed sideways. A mis placed pass followed and Newcastle counter attacked. It looked like they were trying a training ground set piece but whatever it was it was dreadfully executed and the first half didn't get any better. Hughton has been fabulous for us and I will always hold him in very high regard but Bloom has made the right decision. Would we rather grind out another season of hanging in there and hoping for the odd goal win or actually try and progress, If we fail trying so be it. At least we went for it

Guinness Boy · May 17, 2019

Not Andy Naylor said:
Some of our players are simply not up to the tactical demands of the Premier League. I've watched both Locadia and Jahanbaksh struggle with their defensive roles, tracking opponents up to a point then losing concentration or simply giving up. Ali J against Bernardo Silva and Kyle Walker on Sunday was a case in point. He did okay when he remembered what he was supposed to do out of possession but spent too much of the first half ball-watching and Bernardo had to keep reminding him where he was supposed to be. That, though, is what happens when you sign players who have been used to playing in one way and ask them to do something they're not familiar with.

As for pressing, it's tentative at best. Murray hasn't got the energy and once the defender he presses passes to a teammate, that's it. Coaches like Pochettino start the press when the goalkeeper has the ball, which is what Murray would do in one of his teams, and uses wide attackers and the number ten to press the back three or four - but that takes super-fit players. I thought when the players were saying that the pre-season had been very tough that we might improve in that area - okay, not at Pochettino levels - but if anything we look much less fitter than other teams, all over the pitch.

There was a cracking article posted on here rebutting Roy Keane's attack on the Man U players, but really analysing the first Liverpool goal against Huddersfield that they scored from Huddersfield kicking off. The front three close down keeper and the two "spread wide" defenders from a back pass, trying to force it central and the CMs wait to pounce when it is. We don't do that. Now, that's not our tactics, it's Klopp’s but we simply do not have the players to do it, given the front three had the pace-free Murray in the middle of it. If you set (say) Andone, Izqueirdo and Ali J (slower than we'd like but not Murray-esque) as your front three you could press in a similar way. But to do that the players would have to not only be match fit but much fitter than they've looked.

I don't know what your knowledge of PL clubs has told you but anecdotally I've read people say Klopp's fitness regimes can break some players. However, I suspect, because of the money available, that they try to recruit players that are naturally towards the top end of fitness for the league. We may not be able to afford that - or it may not be a definable bit of data that the analysts can use.

Of course, if you spend your days off in a bar.........

Bwian · May 17, 2019

Why does the above link take me to a really old Pro Evo thread? 2003?

Or have I been whooshed again?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Guinness Boy · May 17, 2019

Bwian said:
Why does the above link take me to a really old Pro Evo thread? 2003?

Or have I been whooshed again?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Article links don't work properly on Tapatalk. Which is shite - but Tapatalk's issue, not NSCs (I believe)

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[Albion] The day Hughton won back the fans...but lost the backing of Bloom

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