[Politics] Brexit

Harry Wilson's tackle said:

I have no romantic affinity with the protestants of Ulster, but Ulster is de facto part of our country (our country, by the way, is The United Kingdom which, oddly, is comprised of four constituent countries; the notion of a country is a peculiar thing). Consequently we cannot have a hard border between one part of the country (Ulster) and the rest. We simply cannot. Devolution does not allow for it. Only full independence for Ulster allows it, and even then it becomes compulsory ONLY if there is no hard border between Ulster and Eire.

Our current hard border with EU nations, manifested at sea ports and airports, where passport control is implemented, is an artificial construct we have kept because we did not fancy a porous border such as between France and Germany/Belgium etc. This was a concession to the xenophobic Brits, tiresome but determined entirely by ourselves and tolerated by our weary neighbours.

So, we could, if we want, have an open border with France at the ferry ports and, at airports with Italy and Germany etc., now. Obviously that is anathema to Brexitters, which is why we don't.

Yet....there has been an open border between Eire and Ulster for many years, has there not? That means an open border between the EU and the country called the United Kingdom. So....and bear with me here (I am a remainer after all)....we have passport control with the EU right now, everywhere except between the Ulster and Eire border, and we haven't all died. So....why can't we carry on in the same way after we leave?

Surely if we can visualise how travel to France or Italy will be after we leave, importing via lorries and trains, with presumably not a great deal more border checking than we have now, why is there a need to change anything in terms of arrangements with Eire? Edit: having read up on this, we will have to up the ante when importing and (especuially exporting) ti the EU because we won't have a free trade deal an all exports to the EU will need to be validated (the contaminated prawn issue, see below). That is a separate issue.

Obviously if we find there is a flood of guns, drugs and Albanians across the Irish border after Brexit then we can deal with that then. But....there is an open border there now so why would there be a sudden massive increase in illegal activity? Is that 'project fear'?

Can someone explain to me, in a few sentences (ideally) what the problem is here?

Boris claims that a workaround can be found, which acknowledges that there is a real issue, but he hasn't said what it is. That sounds like the worst of all worlds. If my musings above are correct there is no real problem, so why doesn't he say so? If there is a real problem (that I don't understand) as appears to be the case, then what is his solution?

I decided to look up the Irish Border issue online (several sources) to find out what the problem actually is. Basically it seems that the plan is to leave the border as it is now, but not label this as a permanant solution. In order to allow the possibility of bringing in a hard border in Ireland (to protect the EU from the dangers of crap the UK imports, like antibiotic laden shrimps from the far east coming into the EU) then a hard border may be invoked - this is the 'backstop'.

Unfortunately parliament voted this down on a range of different grounds: the ERG weirdos say this means effectively Northern Ireland (and by definition the UK) will remain in the customs union all the while the order remains open and that is unacceptable. This means they want a hard border in Ireland since nothing else addresses their isues (except a hard border in the North Sea - the traitors!). Others argue that the backstop must be time limited so a proper solution can be introduced at a defined point. Others claim the backstop is illusory because a technological solution (favoured by the EU, involving some sort of as-yet-uninvented way of scanning and tagging imports and exprts using some sort of super fast and powerful MRI machine) is pie in the sky. So we will either be saddled with an open border forever (which the ERG will never accept) or we will have to go 'hard border' within a defined period, which the Ulstermen and, more importantly, the Eire folk (who have the power of veto) will never accept.

Ok....just as I though and have maintained repeatedly, Brexit cannot happen all the while there are elected MPs with a vote who object to one or other aspect of the only possible ways to get Brexit done. I can relax again, happy in the knowledge that Boris cannot get the deal done, and will be prevented for hard Brexitting by his own party if he foolishly tries to go that route.

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Stat Brother said:

In the off chance this hasn't been posted yet:-

[tweet]1143622994910203909[/tweet]

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Thunder Bolt said:

The Gateshead bid was too expensive.

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Gwylan said:

Ulster isn't part of our country ... some of it is.

There can't be a hard border between Ulster and Eire (sic) because part of Ulster is in the ROI

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WATFORD zero said:

If I understand the question correctly, you are asking if we (Britain) could keep the open border in NI, as current, after we leave the EU ? (Continuing to give the EU complete access to all British markets and Freedom of movement across that border)

A few issues that I can see.

Currently, there is no difference whether goods come though Dover or over the Irish border. If we have left the EU then the rules governing goods (Imports and Exports) would be significantly different and if they weren't applied on the Irish Border, everything would simply head to that border until the rules were aligned and border posts were built to apply those rules.

Even if we want to give the EU full access to British markets and people, the EU may not want to continue to give unfettered access to the EU in return, as that is the main benefit of being a member of the EU.The Brexiteers may well cry out that that's the EU's problem and it will be down to the EU to put customs posts in Ireland. However I'm not sure that giving the EU full access to British Markets and people while having no such reciprocal access is sustainable. (Import tariffs only going one way etc).

The most pressing issue I can see though is that we will be operating under the infamous WTO. Their Most Preferred Nations (MPN) rules say that if we grant unlimited access for the EU to British Markets and People, we must also grant it to the whole world.

Is that what you were looking for ?

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Harry Wilson's tackle said:

Pedant. You know I am referring to the bit that is part of the UK.

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Gwylan said:

It's not pedantry, the border between Northern Ireland and the ROI is absolutely fundamental to the debate on Brexit - it's the biggest sticking point.

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Simster said:

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

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hans kraay fan club said:

Given that the hard Brexit beloved of the rabid self-interested forces in charge, is likely to be swiftly followed by the break up of the Union, I'm not convinced that your hypothesis or especially, your #hashtag, are particularly prescient.

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WATFORD zero said:

So who is it you're backing, Johnson or Hunt ? or are you confused again ?

Maybe best if you limit yourself to the easily learned cliches (Less chance of confusing yourself)

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Simster said:

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

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A1X said:

See also: Americans who call Britain "England"

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Simster said:

[tweet]1143862327583883265[/tweet]

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nicko31 said:

Raab today claiming if things end in no deal it will be the EU's choice not ours.

Hang on, I thought 17.4m people all voted for no deal?

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A1X said:

[TWEET]1143895033738907649[/TWEET]

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Thunder Bolt said:

Ministers have been condemned after admitting that they have not carried out any assessment of the impact that a no-deal Brexit would have on the lives of people with disabilities.

The government was accused of having “ignored” people with a disability after admitting that “no formal assessment” had been conducted, despite fears over a possible lack of medical supplies and health workers if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-people-impact-government-plan-a8975511.html

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Thunder Bolt said:

Ministers have been condemned after admitting that they have not carried out any assessment of the impact that a no-deal Brexit would have on the lives of people with disabilities.

The government was accused of having “ignored” people with a disability after admitting that “no formal assessment” had been conducted, despite fears over a possible lack of medical supplies and health workers if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-people-impact-government-plan-a8975511.html

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