[Politics] Brexit

Lincoln Imp · Apr 12, 2019

Baldseagull said:
Official Government response to the Petition used it.

It is sometimes difficult to disentangle HM Government from Conservative Central Office in these shady days of corner-cutting administration. I read recently that senior civil servants are alarmed about the way cabinet meetings are turning into preserve-the-Tory Party forums.

Simster · Apr 12, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
You may be right, Brexit may be undeliverable. And for that, although May has done her best with a poisoned chalice, I will forever blame the previous generations of politicians for allowing our country to become so intractably enmeshed in the EU in the first place.

She really hasn't. She called an election needlessly which reduced her working majority, she decided to ignore other parties except the DUP until it was too late, she negotiated a truly AWFUL deal which can no longer be changed. She's been truly dire.

Triggaaar · Apr 12, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
I will say this once more.

That is not going to happen in the 6 month timescale that we have for Brexit.

We don't have just 6 months. 6 months is the latest extension, and reading this thread it seems that people aren't confident that parliament will manage to do anything in that time. If something in parliament is passed that looks sure to lead to a solution, then no doubt the EU will grant another extension to allow it to take place.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 12, 2019

Good grief! Just when you think things couldn't get any more head-mental, Farage just unveiled something called The Brexit Party to fight the European Elections. First candidate he introduces: Ms Rees-Mogg, sister of the Tory member for the eighteenth century :lolol:

WATFORD zero · Apr 12, 2019

Triggaaar said:
We don't have just 6 months. 6 months is the latest extension, and reading this thread it seems that people aren't confident that parliament will manage to do anything in that time. If something in parliament is passed that looks sure to lead to a solution, then no doubt the EU will grant another extension to allow it to take place.

I don't doubt that for a minute, but the statement you quoted was very clearly in answer to Green Cross Code Man's preferred solution of an Independent NI. I would hope we can agree that any extension is unlikey to be sufficient to implement [MENTION=4573]Green Cross Code Man[/MENTION]'s Independent Northern Ireland solution or [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION]'s United Ireland solution.

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 12, 2019

Simster said:
She really hasn't. She called an election needlessly which reduced her working majority, she decided to ignore other parties except the DUP until it was too late, she negotiated a truly AWFUL deal which can no longer be changed. She's been truly dire.

You're right about the election. I believe I said that May had done her best. I didn't say I liked it nor did I say it was a good job.

KZNSeagull · Apr 12, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Good grief! Just when you think things couldn't get any more head-mental, Farage just unveiled something called The Brexit Party to fight the European Elections. First candidate he introduces: Ms Rees-Mogg, sister of the Tory member for the eighteenth century

But she wasn't dressed in Jane Austen era clothing. I think she must be an imposter.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 12, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
She went into it, with eyes wide open, and still, 34 months later, unwilling to listen to anyone.

I don't think we are quite on the same page here.....who do you think she could have listened to (and whose advice could she have acted upon) to deliver Brexit (any Brexit)? Rees-Mogg? David Davies? Boris? Tony Blair? Anna Soubry? Liam Fox? Nigel Farrage?

Triggaaar · Apr 12, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
I don't doubt that for a minute, but the statement you quoted was very clearly in answer to Green Cross Code Man's preferred solution of an Independent NI. I would hope we can agree that the extension is unlikey to be sufficient to implement [MENTION=4573]Green Cross Code Man[/MENTION]'s Independent Northern Ireland solution or [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION]'s United Ireland solution.

To be honest, I wouldn't think it would take long to sort that out - ask the people of NI if they want to join the RoI, remain with the UK, or go independent, and I imagine they'll just choose to stay with the UK. That shouldn't take long.

Is it PotG? · Apr 12, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
She went into it, with eyes wide open, and still, 34 months later, unwilling to listen to anyone.

When you 'listen' to anyone, does that interpret as back down and concede ground to a Brexit softer than a cashmere codpiece?

Thunder Bolt · Apr 12, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I don't think we are quite on the same page here.....who do you think she could have listened to (and whose advice could she have acted upon) to deliver Brexit (any Brexit)? Rees-Mogg? David Davies? Boris? Tony Blair? Anna Soubry? Liam Fox? Nigel Farrage?

I am referring to quotes from people who have been summonsed to number 10, or been invited to talks elsewhere, Chequers, Brussels etc. Many of them have said, she's invited us, listened to us, but not changed one bit of her plan.
She's even tried to bring her plan into Parliament three times without changing it. She is as stubborn as a mule, and nothing will happen until she compromises.

Is it PotG? · Apr 12, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
He is as stubborn as a mule, and nothing will happen until he compromises.

Jezza?

Bold Seagull · Apr 12, 2019

Triggaaar said:
To be honest, I wouldn't think it would take long to sort that out - ask the people of NI if they want to join the RoI, remain with the UK, or go independent, and I imagine they'll just choose to stay with the UK. That shouldn't take long.

I don't think it's that clear cut. If there is one thing Brexit has done, and that has severed the connection of speaking of a United Ireland and automatically being associated as an IRA sympathiser. The subject of a United Ireland is now very real, talked about without recourse to the troubles, and polls suggest increasingly popular with the people of NI. In terms of the EU, you can already say Ireland is united, united in a desire to remain.

WATFORD zero · Apr 12, 2019

Triggaaar said:
To be honest, I wouldn't think it would take long to sort that out - ask the people of NI if they want to join the RoI, remain with the UK, or go independent, and I imagine they'll just choose to stay with the UK. That shouldn't take long.

I agree, but if they did, that would unfortunately scupper both of these alternative 'solutions'

and now you've dragged me into the realms of fantasy :annoyed:

Triggaaar · Apr 12, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
I agree, but if they did, that would unfortunately scupper both of these alternative 'solutions'

and now you've dragged me into the realms of fantasy

Me dragging you? You were discussing NI with GCCM, and then asked me about it.

Kinky Gerbil · Apr 12, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Good grief! Just when you think things couldn't get any more head-mental, Farage just unveiled something called The Brexit Party to fight the European Elections. First candidate he introduces: Ms Rees-Mogg, sister of the Tory member for the eighteenth century

Forgot to register the website....

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1116583675632574464?s=12

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 12, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
You may be right, Brexit may be undeliverable. And for that, although May has done her best with a poisoned chalice, I will forever blame the previous generations of politicians for allowing our country to become so intractably enmeshed in the EU in the first place.

Agree with that instinctively, especially when I think about Major's battle with 'the ********'. However, to a certain extent our politicians merely reflect the attitudes of the electorate (a semblance of empathy is necessary to get sufficient votes to be elected). I remember the vote for entry to the common market. Heath navigated this. Trade unionists feared erosion of worker rights. But after we joined the game changed. Thatcher politicized it, and she was championed by Murdoch and the editor of the Sun - seemingly for nothing more than easy income by inflaming white van man who then used the Sun as his go to soutce of facts (and tits).

I can never recall a strident rational middle class momentum for Europe. Indeed, my own mild enthusiasm has never been something I see as part of my identity. I am no Roy Jenkins. I just accepted the EU as fact, and felt let down by successive UK politicians who failed to engage with it, attend meetings, nominate commisioners etc. I can remeber the UK engaging properly only when the likes of Robertson landed in the EU, during the Blair years. Blair engaged a bit.

No, thinking about it, this country has been running on consensus government driven by public opinion since the war. The only government that offered real leadership (an ability to decide and enact unpopular policy and tough it out) was Thatcher's (albeit I am not saying that I agreed with her, and she ****ed up in the end with the poll tax, and when her arrogance and vitality morphed into arrogance and cliquery).

The trouble with consensus politics, though, is that it involves compromise, and the instinct to kill off opposition isn't really there. Thatcher and her media allies ruthlessly demonized labour and other opposition (not all that difficult - naive mugs with their 'no compromise with the electorate' bollocks), whereas few other leaders or regimes have had the inclination to constantly belittle and mock opposition (inside and outside the house). That sort of fevered mockery can't last forever; people stop taking notice.

Personally I have disdain for lying bullying ruthless result-fixated politicians and their media backers. Sadly, people do like a strog leader. Look at Trump. He spent months eulogizing Wikileaks. Now that Assange has been arrested he has stated he knows nothing about Wikileaks. And his supporters don't care. That, to me, is dangerous politics and a dangerous precedent.

I would much rather have our politicians who cannot crush dissent and difference of viewpoint. But I agree with you in as much as it would be better if our politicians could accept that ripping the nation apart over nuanced issues writ large as European Obsession is not in the national interest.

So, back to May, she accepted the vote and tried to deliver. As I said elsewhere, it is hard for me to blame her for failing. Unfortunately on this occasion we have alowed the people (the dangerous and foolish people) to dictate a momentous change that cannot be delivered. Paradoxically by trying to bleed the poison of '********' in his party (and voices off) Cameron set in motion the cluster**** that we now face. Paradoxically had he kept a lid on the likes of Bill Cash none of this shit would have happened. Human nature is what it is, though, and the likes of Cash, Fox etc will always exist. That's where I disagree with you - we couldn't really have expected our politicians to put Europe to bed decades ago due to Circumstances and Events.

Political difference of opinion will always exist. Religion will always exist. Racism will always exist. Homophobia will always exist. Don't ever let the nation decide on what to do about such things by referendum, though. That's all.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 12, 2019

Kinky Gerbils said:
Forgot to register the website....

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1116583675632574464?s=12

Donkeys led by an ass :facepalm:

ManOfSussex · Apr 12, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
I don't think it's that clear cut. If there is one thing Brexit has done, and that has severed the connection of speaking of a United Ireland and automatically being associated as an IRA sympathiser. The subject of a United Ireland is now very real, talked about without recourse to the troubles, and polls suggest increasingly popular with the people of NI. In terms of the EU, you can already say Ireland is united, united in a desire to remain.

Irrespective of the outcome of any potential referendum, the mere holding of one in the first place and the aftermath will not be pretty.

Triggaaar · Apr 12, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Morning squire.

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