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[Albion] Dale Stephens



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Eric Youngs Contact Lense

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I'm sorry, but do explain that? How is it not the job of your playmaker to pass the ball forward? And how is passing the ball forward less of a strength than passing it backwards or to the side?

Play-maker?? If you think that is his role in this formation then no wonder you are frustrated.. who then do you think is the defensive midfielder?
 


Not Andy Naylor

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2007
8,787
Seven Dials
There was a moment about 20 minutes from the end when Huddersfield were starting to drop back in serious number and we could have flagged and settled for a point, but it was Stephens who kept showing for the ball, probing and pushing the team forwards.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
Playmaker? I've never heard Dale Stephens referred to as a "playmaker" before, and I'm sure it would make him laugh too.

He's the defensive shield of the back 4. He's the water carrier. He plays in a position where - if he is to pass forwards - the pass has to be absolutely perfect, as otherwise it's a very risky pass to make.

I can understand the groans when he passes sideways or backwards, but the groans should be directed at the attacking players for not providing the movement, not at Stephens. I don't understand how people can't see that.

I'm sure it absolutely wouldn't make him laugh. I'm pretty sure he'd be quite insulted that anyone is questioning his ability to do it. And why can't he be multifunctional? Why can't a player break up play and dictate it? Just because he's not Pirlo, doesn't mean he has to be solely Makelele either. Ultimately the player at the back of a midfield 3 is a playmaker in many many teams in that he is often the player starting the play.

I disagree that a forward pass is more risky than a backwards pass. Often a backwards pass against a team at our level is even more dangerous as it puts pressure on your defenders and either means they hoof it forward (as per Duffy) or they just end up trying a more accurate forward pass themselves which is as risky as Stephens doing it (as per Dunk). Ultimately though, the best players in his position in the world regularly play the ball forward even when under pressure, all whilst dictating the play.

We can agree on your last paragraph though - I said as much in my player ratings. But there have also been plenty of times when a simple forward ball has been on and Stephens hasn't taken it, which has slowed us down offensively. The first half on Saturday was more of the former.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
Play-maker?? If you think that is his role in this formation then no wonder you are frustrated.. who then do you think is the defensive midfielder?

Why can't he be both? As the first person to receive the ball in midfield, and often the player with the most touches of the ball in our games, how can you describe him as anything less than a playmaker? Pirlo, Busquets, Fernandinho, Jorginho are all examples of deep lying playmakers who are/were the furthest midfielders back in their sides' midfields.
 


Bold Seagull

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Mar 18, 2010
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Why can't he be both? As the first person to receive the ball in midfield, and often the player with the most touches of the ball in our games, how can you describe him as anything less than a playmaker? Pirlo, Busquets, Fernandinho, Jorginho are all examples of deep lying playmakers who are/were the furthest midfielders back in their sides' midfields.

I put Stephens more in the Michael Carrick, Makélélé, Kante type position really. They were holding ball winners, of course they contributed to play making, but not sure any of them were play makers in the truest sense of the word though, I do get your drift though.
 




sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
Because Dale Stephens isn't really our "playmaker". And as for your second sentence, what are you talking about? His job is to break up opposition attacks and retain possession, which often means going backwards. Obviously there are times when he misses the chance for a probing forward pass, but more often than not, I'd say he does the right thing in playing percentages and looking to retain possession even if that means going sideways or backwards.


To be honest, I nearly posted almost exactly this in response. Some people are clearly absolutely clueless about the nuances of the game as they have never played themselves before.

You said that passing forward isn't really his strength. Does that mean, in your opinion, that passing sideways or backwards is, and if so why is he stronger at those? I think Stephens had a mixed game on Saturday and wasn't helped by those in front of him, but even his most blinkered of fans can surely see that there are at least 2 or 3 occasions in every game where he doesn't pick the correct forward pass which loses us momentum.

I disagree re the playmaker point. He's regularly the man with the most touches in our team, he's regularly the first man in any attacking moves to touch the ball outside of our defenders; ergo he is our playmaker. That can mean he keeps possession at times, it can mean he slows play up when its appropriate and similarly speeds it up when appropriate. But he's still the central cog in our side and the ball goes through him in almost all of our attacking play at some point. That means he's our playmaker because, unsurprisingly, he's making the play.

Here's a tip, seeing as the second part of your message seems to be so desperate to condescend others - players can be multifunctional. They can be water carriers or midfielders that break up the play whilst also being playmakers.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
I put Stephens more in the Michael Carrick, Makélélé, Kante type position really. They were holding ball winners, of course they contributed to play making, but not sure any of them were play makers in the truest sense of the word though, I do get your drift though.

I agree with the latter two. But Carrick was very much a playmaker I'd say.

Also, people need to remember the games Propper has played there when Stephens has been injured or suspended. He's very much a dictator of play, even though he's playing in that deeper position. The difference is that Propper is naturally more expansive with his passing.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,110
Surrey
You said that passing forward isn't really his strength. Does that mean, in your opinion, that passing sideways or backwards is, and if so why is he stronger at those? I think Stephens had a mixed game on Saturday and wasn't helped by those in front of him, but even his most blinkered of fans can surely see that there are at least 2 or 3 occasions in every game where he doesn't pick the correct forward pass which loses us momentum.

I disagree re the playmaker point. He's regularly the man with the most touches in our team, he's regularly the first man in any attacking moves to touch the ball outside of our defenders; ergo he is our playmaker. That can mean he keeps possession at times, it can mean he slows play up when its appropriate and similarly speeds it up when appropriate. But he's still the central cog in our side and the ball goes through him in almost all of our attacking play at some point. That means he's our playmaker because, unsurprisingly, he's making the play.

Here's a tip, seeing as the second part of your message seems to be so desperate to condescend others - players can be multifunctional. They can be water carriers or midfielders that break up the play whilst also being playmakers.

Here's another tip - if you want to sound rational, it's probably best not to put words in other people's mouths. In this instance, just because I said his forward passing isn't his strength, that DOESN'T mean I'm saying backwards/sideways passing is. It means that his strength is winning the ball back and retaining possession, which is what I have been consistently saying on this thread. My main beef with Dale Stephens is that too often at this level, he tries to get involved by dropping too deep and picking the ball up from the toes of our centre backs. Poor. All he is doing there is taking himself or that centre back out of the game.

I am completely with [MENTION=23842]Scunner[/MENTION] on this issue. Most of the whinging at him not picking the forward pass is absolutely clueless. 75% of the time it is down to a lack of movement ahead of the man with the ball, and the rest of the time it is arguable whether any of our midfielders have the ability to pick the forward pass we're all seeing from 50 feet up.
 
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Bold Seagull

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Mar 18, 2010
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I agree with the latter two. But Carrick was very much a playmaker I'd say.

Also, people need to remember the games Propper has played there when Stephens has been injured or suspended. He's very much a dictator of play, even though he's playing in that deeper position. The difference is that Propper is naturally more expansive with his passing.

Propper is undoubtedly a better all round player in my opinion, and a stand out player of the year for me. If we did bring in a quality midfielder, Propper is so versatile who could play Stephens role, and put pressure on that place depending on who came in.

Stephens isn't that player though, he is what he is, and he's getting the best out of the talent and attributes he's got. We have players who lose the ball regularly for us in midfield and up front, we honestly don't need another playing percentage passes at risk. Stephens is a rock, I'd suggest rather than getting frustrated and picking out any pass that doesn't go forward, try to acknowledge all the great stuff he does. Too many just see him make a sideways pass, that's it for them, that's their opinion vindicated. They won't even see the good stuff he does and the massive contribution to the team.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
Here's another tip - if you want to sound rational, it's probably best not to put words in other people's mouths. In this instance, just because I said his forward passing isn't his strength, that DOESN'T mean I'm saying backwards/sideways passing is. It means that his strength is winning the ball back and retaining possession, which is what I have been consistently saying on this thread. My main beef with Dale Stephens is that too often at this level, he tries to get involved by dropping too deep and picking the ball up from the toes of our centre backs. Poor. All he is doing there is taking himself or that centre back out of the game.

I am completely with Scunner on this issue. Most of the whinging at him not picking the forward pass is absolutely clueless. 75% of the time it is down to a lack of movement, and the rest of the time it is arguable whether our other midfielders have the ability to pick the forward pass we're all seeing from 50 feet up.

There. Answers to questions. That's what I like to see.

And I agree with you. I worry at times that that's because he knows how poor Duffy is on the ball and in this regard he drops so deep to make himself the de facto playmaker in our side as he knows that Duffy passing the ball forward is likely to lead to a turnover in possession if said pass is further than 5 yards. He shifts back close to them much less when Dunk has the ball at his feet.

I actually stated as much in my player rating re his passing forward at the weekend. The lack of movement in the forward positions in the first half, unfortunately due in part to Murray's lack of mobility, meant that we were so rigid and it often left Stephens with few options. What was telling in the second half was that he (and the other midfielders) often played simple slide rule passes into Andone's feet on the edge of the area and allowed the others to play off of him. But that's down largely to the fact that Andone protects the ball so well in a way Murray just doesn't. Surely though, if we're seeing this systematic issue and it's occurring so regularly, then why is CH not seeing it and adapting?
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,678
Propper is undoubtedly a better all round player in my opinion, and a stand out player of the year for me. If we did bring in a quality midfielder, Propper is so versatile who could play Stephens role, and put pressure on that place depending on who came in.

Stephens isn't that player though, he is what he is, and he's getting the best out of the talent and attributes he's got. We have players who lose the ball regularly for us in midfield and up front, we honestly don't need another playing percentage passes at risk. Stephens is a rock, I'd suggest rather than getting frustrated and picking out any pass that doesn't go forward, try to acknowledge all the great stuff he does. Too many just see him make a sideways pass, that's it for them, that's their opinion vindicated. They won't even see the good stuff he does and the massive contribution to the team.

At no point in this thread have I questioned what he brings. I think there are times he picks the wrong pass and slows us down, but Saturday wasn't really one of those occasions as I felt that it was those around him who were causing the issue with their rigidity (I said as much in my player ratings). If anything, I seem to be giving him more credit than anyone else on here by suggesting that he is the guy making our play - everyone else seems to be happy to limit his role to just breaking up play and keeping possession.
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
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At no point in this thread have I questioned what he brings. I think there are times he picks the wrong pass and slows us down, but Saturday wasn't really one of those occasions as I felt that it was those around him who were causing the issue with their rigidity (I said as much in my player ratings). If anything, I seem to be giving him more credit than anyone else on here by suggesting that he is the guy making our play - everyone else seems to be happy to limit his role to just breaking up play and keeping possession.

It was the 'royal' too many people, I wasn't referring directly to you.
 


Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
I though Dale Stephens was excellent Sat. But I also think this hasn't been his most effective season. The point that Simster makes about him coming too deep to collect the ball is a good one and shows a distrust of the CD. I'd like to see an upgrade but then you could say that of all of the starting XI that's football. For me strikers and the wide players are the principal issues currently. Strikers are an obvious area and I would like two in as Locadia hasn't shown enough. But I also struggle at this point to think which of our wingers is consistently good enough? All of them have had reasonable games, but all too rarely. I would look to move a couple of them on in the summer and I think you could make a case for any of them to go. A young RB who can challenge for the 1st team would be my other option. Stephens will need to be addressed in the next 2/3 seasons but I wouldn't be moving him on this summer nowhere near our main problem IMO
 


E

Eric Youngs Contact Lense

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Why can't he be both? As the first person to receive the ball in midfield, and often the player with the most touches of the ball in our games, how can you describe him as anything less than a playmaker? Pirlo, Busquets, Fernandinho, Jorginho are all examples of deep lying playmakers who are/were the furthest midfielders back in their sides' midfields.

Lying deep or receiving the ball in deep positions doesn't make their role in the team as play-maker. Pirlo would hardly be categorised as doing a similar role as Fernandinho . I do agree that DS role is similar to a Busquets or even Fernandinho - neither of which would be described by anybody else as a playmaker in their respective sides, and neither of which are particularly well known for their forward play - doesn't mean that they can't do it, just that their primary role is not that. Your argument might have some legs if we played 4-4-2, but in a 4-3-3 you need at least one of your midfield 3 to do a defensive role 1st and foremost..
 




E

Eric Youngs Contact Lense

Guest
At no point in this thread have I questioned what he brings. I think there are times he picks the wrong pass and slows us down, but Saturday wasn't really one of those occasions as I felt that it was those around him who were causing the issue with their rigidity (I said as much in my player ratings). If anything, I seem to be giving him more credit than anyone else on here by suggesting that he is the guy making our play - everyone else seems to be happy to limit his role to just breaking up play and keeping possession.

No they are not - they are simply trying to point out that in our side, in his role, sideways and backwards will often be the only realistic options in response to the simplistic suggestions that is all he ever does by choice.
 


Weststander

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Aug 25, 2011
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Seeing as a few on here that quote x players say Stephens had a good game yesterday I’ve also seen a few that also say Brighton’s midfield do not produce enough goals through out this season. Stats dont lie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brighton’s midfield as a collective don’t score many scores, very true.

But most CM sitters rarely score goals in open play at the highest level - Makelele, Kante, Stephens. Not in their job description.
 


Weststander

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Who did it when we beat West Ham, Hudds away, Palace? All disciplined defensive performances as Watford recently. You underestimate Propper’s class (and Kayal’s) and it’s simply a myth that Stephens is indispensable

I rate Propper and Kayal very highly. But Stephens is the best we have at the deep sitting midfielder role.

Anecdotally mentioning a few games, doesn’t surpass the stats from all our games produced by [MENTION=33924]Nixonator[/MENTION] and others on anti Stephens threads - the Albion simply have a far higher win rate when Stephens starts, than when he doesn’t start.
 


big nuts

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Jan 15, 2011
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Anyone that thinks that Stephens had a poor game on Saturday, or gave the ball away too much or kept on passing sideways, or holds the team back in some way analogous to those oft repeated cliches knows jack-shit about football. They know sod-all about team chemistry, keeping possession where necessary, breaking up play, defending the 18 yard line when the chips are down and being a reliable fulcrum while 'artistes' are having a temper tantrum. Such as Bissouma in the first half when DS bollocked him for not showing around the corner. Because he didn't and Stephens had to go back to Duffy the morons around me got on Stephens' back, this is the problem. The team didn't show when DS had the ball on multiple occasions on Saturday. He doesn't hide, so save your opprobrium for that 'type' of player rather than him.

More worryingly this crass, misplaced anger is filtering onto the pitch and Stephens got caught in the 2nd half directly as a result of crowd nerves and groaning at him.

A few minutes before this he had wanted to pass forward but yet again there was no movement, so he pivoted and passed to Duffy. The crowd moaned and he raised his hands to demonstrate 'there was nothing on'. Cue a few minutes later when faced with the same scenario he looked for too long and got caught. This gave the self-fulfilling prophets of piss and wind around me a chance to glow in the reflection of their own bullshit.

I was glad to see that most realised DS had a fantastic game on Saturday, bossing the midfield, playing positive well struck passes allowing flimsier individuals to tickle the fancy of the crowd when the mood took them. It sums up today's bite size culture and the concomitant reduction in attention span that it takes for players like DS to be missing before some realise that they were there in the first place.

I’d also add to this fine post that Stephens knows how to manage match situations. Controlling the pace and tempo when possible.

Knowing when to press and when to hold the shape of the team.

He has the ability to play forward but often decides to play back or sideways as the team need to retain possession, not just give it back, especially as we are a c.40% possession team on average.

Chasing the ball tires teams so ball retention becomes hugely important.

Bridcutt was a great holding player but he didn’t have the ability to pass the ball much further than 20 yards and creativity was generally non existent. Stephens is a much more rounded player, hence our better results with him in the team.
 
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Weststander

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Aug 25, 2011
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I’d also add to this fine post that Stephens knows how to manage match situations. Controlling the pace and tempo when possible.

Knowing when to press and when to hold the shape of the team.

He has the ability to play forward but often decides to play back or sideways as the team need to retain possession, not just give it back, especially as we are a c.40% possession team on average.

Chasing the ball tires teams to ball retention becomes hugely important.

Bridcutt was a great holding player but he didn’t have the ability to pass the ball much further than 20 yards and creativity was generally non existent. Stephens is a much more rounded player, hence our better results with him in the team.

Good post, [MENTION=18183]big nuts[/MENTION] knows his football.
 


Wilka

Well-known member
Nov 18, 2003
3,683
Burgess Hill
Anyone that thinks that Stephens had a poor game on Saturday, or gave the ball away too much or kept on passing sideways, or holds the team back in some way analogous to those oft repeated cliches knows jack-shit about football. They know sod-all about team chemistry, keeping possession where necessary, breaking up play, defending the 18 yard line when the chips are down and being a reliable fulcrum while 'artistes' are having a temper tantrum. Such as Bissouma in the first half when DS bollocked him for not showing around the corner. Because he didn't and Stephens had to go back to Duffy the morons around me got on Stephens' back, this is the problem. The team didn't show when DS had the ball on multiple occasions on Saturday. He doesn't hide, so save your opprobrium for that 'type' of player rather than him.

More worryingly this crass, misplaced anger is filtering onto the pitch and Stephens got caught in the 2nd half directly as a result of crowd nerves and groaning at him.

A few minutes before this he had wanted to pass forward but yet again there was no movement, so he pivoted and passed to Duffy. The crowd moaned and he raised his hands to demonstrate 'there was nothing on'. Cue a few minutes later when faced with the same scenario he looked for too long and got caught. This gave the self-fulfilling prophets of piss and wind around me a chance to glow in the reflection of their own bullshit.

I was glad to see that most realised DS had a fantastic game on Saturday, bossing the midfield, playing positive well struck passes allowing flimsier individuals to tickle the fancy of the crowd when the mood took them. It sums up today's bite size culture and the concomitant reduction in attention span that it takes for players like DS to be missing before some realise that they were there in the first place.

Well said!

Any time we have been without Stephen's due to injury or suspension we have been a much poorer side. He's a key player and people need to get off his back. It doesn't help anyone when the moaning is as audible as it has started to become in recent weeks.
 



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