[Football] Are the shackles off or is this a false dawn

Bwian · Aug 18, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
Very effective for two seasons as it happens.

Just the latter part it was poor.

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Effective for one season. Last season, despite the points tally by Christmas, was still pretty horrible. Even more so away from home. After Christmas it was simply bloody awful.

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BLOCK F · Aug 18, 2019

SussexSeahawk said:
As ever this comes down to two questions: 'are the results going to be better under Potter than Hughton?' and 'would you rather worse results to see more interesting football?'

The answer to the first question looks to be yes but I think the latter question is influencing people's memory. If you asked the bookies when we came up what our chances of staying up 2 years in a row was I believe it would be around 30%. In terms of results overall our first two years were a huge success. Of course based on the end of last season it is unclear whether that would continue going forward. Imo whether we are better or not was the only consideration of Bloom: by his analysis we would be better under Potter's tactics so we went that way. This has nothing to do with 'shackles'.

The other question which seem to conflate with the first is about how much value should be placed on playing attractive football. Imo it's incredibly minimal: the primary thing that I care about is Albion winning and the 'not playing attractive football' trope only ever comes out when results aren't going well. Stoke fans used to love playing under Pulis, Cardiff and Burnley fans get great entertainment playing 'their' way. Most people on this forum were fine with playing defensive football when we were beating West Ham 3-0 away or beating Arsenal.

Imo the majority of those complaining about their 'entertainment value' last year need to take a look at where we are. Albion are in the toughest league they have ever been in and surviving twice has been an incredible achievement. If you genuinely prefer us attacking Spurs and losing 5-1 rather than keeping it tight even if you think we would be less likely to get a result then I don't really understand it. If we're accepting that going to the football is about 'entertainment value' then maybe Barber was right all along in calling us customers.

Playing attractive football AND winning are not mutually exclusive.
You come over as suggesting they are.
Apologies if I have got it wrong.
'Surviving twice has been an incredible achievement'. Well, it wasn't incredible enough to stop Tony Bloom sacking Hughton and thinking we could do better in both the attractive and results 'columns,' was it?

Bob'n'weave · Aug 18, 2019

Bakero said:
The fabled new manager bounce is usually just reversion to the mean following a sacking due to a slump. What we're witnessing is a completely different kettle of fish. As you said, Potter is doing a good job. In no time at all he's adapted the playing style and the team seem to have taken to his ideas. Long may it continue.

Noticed a couple of players mentioning in interviews how, 'the players like his ideas', which is obviously playing a big part in what we are now seeing - positive attacking football and a motivated team. We've played two decent teams, both not expected to be far away from a mid-table table finish and we looked more than up for task. I'll take a few tonkings against the big boys along with performances like yesterday and last week any day of the week!

:albion2:

Dick Swiveller · Aug 18, 2019

Titanic said:
If we play like this all season, home and away, win a few, draw a few, lose a few....and finish 17th... I will be THRILLED.

Yep - watching Sheff Utd v Palace and highlights of Watford and Newcastle amongst others, it will seem grossly unfair if we play as well as this and go down. It could be a false dawn. Teams might figure us out. We might have played the two worst teams and will look abysmal for the rest of the season. Or we could be showing promise of good things to come.

One Teddy Maybank · Aug 18, 2019

Bwian said:
Effective for one season. Last season, despite the points tally by Christmas, was still pretty horrible. Even more so away from home. After Christmas it was simply bloody awful.

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Matter of opinion, I was fine with the first part.

The end product justified the means and of course was probably the reason we stayed up.

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Mellotron · Aug 18, 2019

Early days but we no longer look like a side that is only occupied with staying up.

Blue Valkyrie · Aug 18, 2019

I think Hughton's biggest and only failing was that deep down he didn't believe in his squad at PL level - and that the dour tactics and miserable shackling was a consequence of this.

Which could imply that with a top 6 team - and more belief in them - reflected in resulting tactics - he could do quite well.

Anyway, great manager for us, left at the right time, I just think his downfall with us all stemmed from that 1 flaw.

Wardy's twin · Aug 18, 2019

I agree early days but whilst people may have talked about the VAR decision the lasting impression of most is that it was a good game to watch we dominated the key parts.

Whatever happens now we have rolled the dice let's just get on with it and enjoy the ride.

Nottseagull · Aug 18, 2019

Hugo Rune said:
‘Has’ is too strong a word maybe.

As the word appears neither in the post you quoted nor the thread title, I can't tell what you're talking about.

BLOCK F · Aug 18, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
I think Hughton's biggest and only failing was that deep down he didn't believe in his squad at PL level - and that the dour tactics and miserable shackling was a consequence of this.

Which could imply that with a top 6 team - and more belief in them - reflected in resulting tactics - he could do quite well.

Anyway, great manager for us, left at the right time, I just think his downfall with us all stemmed from that 1 flaw.

Hughton and a top six team? You are talking purely hypothetically, I assume.
What team of top six calibre would employ him?
He may well not have believed in his squad at this level, but his downfall was his inability to get the best out of his squad, something that Potter appears able to do with very much the same players he has at his disposal as Hughton did.
I don't think lack of belief was Hughton's only failing; without stirring up the old' for and againsts,' I will just say, I think he was a limited tactician.

Blue Valkyrie · Aug 18, 2019

BLOCK F said:
Hughton and a top six team? You are talking purely hypothetically, I assume.
What team of top six calibre would employ him?
He may well not have believed in his squad at this level, but his downfall was his inability to get the best out of his squad, something that Potter appears able to do with very much the same players he has at his disposal as Hughton did.
I don't think lack of belief was Hughton's only failing; without stirring up the old' for and againsts,' I will just say, I think he was a limited tactician.

I just think his limited tactics came from his lack of belief in our squad.

BLOCK F · Aug 18, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
I just think his limited tactics came from his lack of belief in our squad.

Oh well, a case of 'cart or horse', but he has a bit of form for his cautious and defence minded approach to managing teams, doesn't he!

banjo · Aug 18, 2019

Icy Gull said:
Were loose on the NSC header needs replacing with Shackles Off

Or Expelliarmus

Hugo Rune · Aug 18, 2019

Hugo Rune said:
’Has’ is too stronger a word maybe.

Nottseagull said:
As the word appears neither in the post you quoted nor the thread title, I can't tell what you're talking about.

It’s such a shame that you weren’t in charge of the VAR review yesterday! Go back a bit further (like the VAR ref did) and you’ll find the following quote that should put the other quote into context.[emoji106]

Hugo Rune said:
Potter HAS to finish top 10. A different ball game one might say.

razer · Aug 18, 2019

Icy Gull said:
Am I wrong?

No.

razer · Aug 18, 2019

I hope the "shackles" stay off for the Citeh game.

Also, last season I always though the bench seemed to consist of players who weren't quite good enough to make the first team whereas this year, I feel that the benched players shouldn't be on the bench but should be starting the game. It's a good feeling.

maltaseagull · Aug 18, 2019

Titanic said:
If we play like this all season, home and away, win a few, draw a few, lose a few....and finish 17th... I will be THRILLED.

I really think that if we maintain this level of performance it woill be more like top half.

SussexSeahawk · Aug 18, 2019

BLOCK F said:
Playing attractive football AND winning are not mutually exclusive.
You come over as suggesting they are.
Apologies if I have got it wrong.
'Surviving twice has been an incredible achievement'. Well, it wasn't incredible enough to stop Tony Bloom sacking Hughton and thinking we could do better in both the attractive and results 'columns,' was it?

I'm saying that all Bloom cares about and all I care about is the results aspect. I am not saying they are mutually exclusive but I am saying they are independent: Potter isn't a better manager BECAUSE he plays football that is more interesting to watch.

If the better results comes about through more attractive football then that's great. I would rather Potter be our manager because I think our results will be better. But if you are saying you would rather Potter be our manager than Hughton because he plays more attractive football, then it means there are other considerations beyond results that matter.

It means that in a hypothetical scenario you would rather have a manger that gets worse results but plays better football. That's obviously a reasonable position to have but not one that I share.

Bakero · Aug 18, 2019

SussexSeahawk said:
I'm saying that all Bloom cares about and all I care about is the results aspect. I am not saying they are mutually exclusive but I am saying they are independent: Potter isn't a better manager BECAUSE he plays football that is more interesting to watch.

If the better results comes about through more attractive football then that's great. I would rather Potter be our manager because I think our results will be better. But if you are saying you would rather Potter be our manager than Hughton because he plays more attractive football, then it means there are other considerations beyond results that matter.

It means that in a hypothetical scenario you would rather have a manger that gets worse results but plays better football. That's obviously a reasonable position to have but not one that I share.

Of course results are critical but I think you'll find many fans, Bloom included, are partial to a bit of good football too.

dazzer6666 · Aug 18, 2019

It’s like comparing apples with a piano. Potter is using the (same) players completely differently. Will it work ? Maybe not, but the signs so far are positive. Biggest difference for me is the sight of Propper and Stephens driving forward, buzzing around the edge of the opposition box....supported by multiple others. They look like new players. It was quite a surprise at Watford, at 1-0, to see then with possession and us with 6 or 7 players in their half pressing them rather than sitting back inviting pressure and trying to protect a 1-0 lead. Burn has been a revelation - obviously the formation suits him but he was available to CH.

So far, after 2 games, we’ve actually been enjoyable to watch. It’s very early days but I’ll take this over what I sat through most of last season any day (and that includes some of the wins too - the last 2 games have both been infinitely better to watch than the 3 consecutive 1-0 wins we had, even if the points tally is less).

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