[Albion] Comparisons to Hughton end at Norwich

Bwian · Apr 17, 2019

Darren Flaxman [MENTION=37204]the[/MENTION]_canary
Replying to
@_PaulHayward
This Brighton season is a mirror image of his second season with us, both completely of his own making and stemming from a negative mindset and an inability to adapt. I didn’t see 38 games in his second season at #ncfc I saw one game 38 times.

DumLum · Apr 17, 2019

Mackenzie said:
Norwich sacked Hughton and were relegated, so we should definitely stick by him. It’s good that we can learn from history isn’t it.

Maybe Norwich stuck with him 1 game too many.
They lost at home to WBA who were below Norwich at the time. He was then sacked and Norwich had to go to Fulham who were a relegation rival in the bottom 3. They lost. The lost four games were Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal. Would he have kept them up? Unlikely.
Sacking him was not the reason the Norwich went down. Failing to achieve enpugh points whilst he was in charge was.

Biscuit · Apr 17, 2019

peterward said:
In a nutshell. We may somehow survive (though I doubt it), but surely it's clear to all that Hughton doesn't have the requisite skills or tactical nous to get us to a comfortable mid table team.

Relegation is matter of when not if, unless we change.

It's not clear to me, at all. And excuse me if I refuse to kick a good man while he's down but I think Hughton is a rare breed in modern football and I'd like to stick my neck on the line to defend him against some of the ridiculous allegations of incompetence banded around on here. Accusations which are kept under wraps when all is going well, and only seem to surface when full grown adults can't temper their disappointment and feel, rather pathetically IMO, to lash out in order to make themselves feel better.

We have a bottom three budget, we're fourth from bottom. So we're actually over-performing! :lolol:

You need vast pots of cash to compete and become mid-table, it's hard to criticise Hughton for that until he has that sort of budget and doesn't achieve it, surely? Perhaps he knows a damn sight more about football than the majority of armchair fans on here, and maybe, just maybe, he sets us up the way he does because we don't have the players to successfully play another way.

Look at where we were when he took over, look where he's bought us. Did we expect it to be easy? Or did we expect to have a fight on our hands? I know what camp I'm in. Are we getting relegated this season? I dunno, possibly. Maybe. Odds on, I guess. Am I acting like an enormous man-child because Brighton aren't winning enough? No, I'm not. I'm just disappointed and hope we improve. I'm not sure how slagging off a decent, hardworking man who's clearly capable and doing his absolute best is going to help anything.

The_Viper · Apr 17, 2019

Pretty convincing that, isn't it? Everybody and their mother slagged off Norwich for sacking him at this exact stage of their PL campaign. They went down and everyone blamed them for sacking CH. TB is now going the opposite route and giving him the chance to save us. I'd argue that if CH gets us relegated he's never going to work as a PL manager again.

peterward · Apr 17, 2019

Biscuit said:
It's not clear to me, at all. And excuse me if I refuse to kick a good man while he's down but I think Hughton is a rare breed in modern football and I'd like to stick my neck on the line to defend him against some of the ridiculous allegations of incompetence banded around on here. Accusations which are kept under wraps when all is going well, and only seem to surface when full grown adults can't temper their disappointment and feel, rather pathetically IMO, to lash out in order to make themselves feel better.

We have a bottom three budget, we're fourth from bottom. So we're actually over-performing! You need vast pots of cash to compete and become mid-table, it's hard to criticise Hughton for that until he has that sort of budget and doesn't achieve it, surely? Perhaps he knows a damn sight more about football than the majority of armchair fans on here, and maybe, just maybe, he sets us up the way he does because we don't have the players to successfully play another way.

Nobody could argue about his character, he is and possibly always will be the nicest guy to manage the club. But it is clear to see, both the negative and unchanging tactics that are fruitless on the road and more so now at home. We're sinking fast and ultimately the buck for the first team stops with the manager. This is not knee jerk, this is the culmiantion of months of dire negative performances and dire results.
If you want to stay loyal at the price of championship football and more of the same "one size fits all" defensive crap..... That is your call.
This is a results business, and nobody expects miracles, but have you seen the performances? The collective heads have gone. This bunch of players are better than this position. The manager isn't

Springal · Apr 17, 2019

Biscuit said:
We have a bottom three budget, we're fourth from bottom. So we're actually over-performing! You need vast pots of cash to compete and become mid-table, it's hard to criticise Hughton for that until he has that sort of budget and doesn't achieve it, surely? Perhaps he knows a damn sight more about football than the majority of armchair fans on here, and maybe, just maybe, he sets us up the way he does because we don't have the players to successfully play another way.

.

We were competing well last season and the first half of this season. 25 points at the half way point and only 8 points since with the same players and same squad. Budget is irrelevant when we are turning in the performances that we are.

You can talk about budgets etc, but it was only last season we talked about how great we had recruited etc.

Napper · Apr 17, 2019

Norwich are a much bigger club than us

Relevant to nothing but slipping it in there

peterward · Apr 17, 2019

Napper said:
Norwich are a much bigger club than us

Relevant to nothing but slipping it in there

I don't think they are, they've been more successful than us, but club size, fan base is similar.

Biscuit · Apr 17, 2019

peterward said:
Nobody could argue about his character, he is and possibly always will be the nicest guy to manage the club. But it is clear to see, both the negative and unchanging tactics that are fruitless on the road and more so now at home. We're sinking fast and ultimately the buck for the first team stops with the manager. This is not knee jerk, this is the culmiantion of months of dire negative performances and dire results.
If you want to stay loyal at the price of championship football and more of the same "one size fits all" defensive crap..... That is your call.
This is a results business, and nobody expects miracles, but have you seen the performances? The collective heads have gone. This bunch of players are better than this position. The manager isn't

I think it's far more complicated than a binary choice between a) players are crap or b) manager is crap.

I think injuries to important players, big decisions not going our way, confidence dwindling, the fans turning.. all that has a major impact on the performances and, in-turn, the results. That cycle can be negative and very destructive. So I think just laying all that at the managers door is harsh in the extreme. I think Hughton is an experienced manager that knows what the players re capable off and will guide us through this as best he can.

Nixonator · Apr 17, 2019

Napper said:
Norwich are a much bigger club than us

Relevant to nothing but slipping it in there

You're going to have to explain that one unless you're going to talk about historical league position, in which case they'll be clubs with 5k attendances pipping us to 'big club' status.

Bwian · Apr 17, 2019

The_Viper said:
View attachment 107800

Pretty convincing that, isn't it? Everybody and their mother slagged off Norwich for sacking him at this exact stage of their PL campaign. They went down and everyone blamed them for sacking CH. TB is now going the opposite route and giving him the chance to save us. I'd argue that if CH gets us relegated he's never going to work as a PL manager again.

If that graphic is true then that is an incredible, almost identical comparison. I too doubt he'll get another PL job based on the Norwich and ourselves.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Biscuit · Apr 17, 2019

Springal said:
We were competing well last season and the first half of this season. 25 points at the half way point and only 8 points since with the same players and same squad. Budget is irrelevant when we are turning in the performances that we are.

You can talk about budgets etc, but it was only last season we talked about how great we had recruited etc.

So you've been happy with the last season and a half, and wasn't expecting us to hit a rough patch? And despite all the variables outside of CH's control that have contributed to this, it's CH's fault. Is that a fair assessment of your expectations/reality?

peterward · Apr 17, 2019

Biscuit said:
I think it's far more complicated than a binary choice between a) players are crap or b) manager is crap.

I think injuries to important players, big decisions not going our way, confidence dwindling, the fans turning.. all that has a major impact on the performances and, in-turn, the results. That cycle can be negative and very destructive. So I think just laying all that at the managers door is harsh in the extreme. I think Hughton is an experienced manager that knows what the players re capable off and will guide us through this as best he can.

I agree it's not a binary choice between players are crap or manager is crap.... But it is a binary choice between sit and do nothing after months of poor performances and results or do something.

At just about any other club, I think he'd be gone already.... The cup run, where except Bournemouth away we won games we were always favourite to anyway, helped to distract from the terrible league form.

You cannot change all the players, and ultimately if this group of players, whom we have all seen playing much much better, suddenly implode with nothing to stem the flow, that is what the manager was paid to do... If he can't (and there's nothing to suggest the next 5 games will differ from previous 15) he has to go. Ranieri won the title, he was rightly sacked without sentiment when his team stopped playing and results went south. This is not personal.

Our club, it's position from which it's financial health comes is bigger than Chris Hughton. He has been given every chance to turn it around and he has been unable and that's partly imho because of his conservative/negative/defensive mindset that is not going to win matches. Trying first and foremost not to lose first was fine when it worked. It doesn't anymore.... We're slow, predictable, devoid of ideas, slow to get up the pitch and choking on our own defensive vomit. Do we accept drowning or attempt a rescue?
I maintain, that with Hughton, because of his negativity and tactical limitations, relegation is when not if.

Springal · Apr 17, 2019

Biscuit said:
So you've been happy with the last season and a half, and wasn't expecting us to hit a rough patch? And despite all the variables outside of CH's control that have contributed to this, it's CH's fault. Is that a fair assessment of your expectations/reality?

Absolutely I did expect us to and we did hit them last season we recovered. This is more than a rough patch in my opinion and I don't see how we get out of it

El Turi · Apr 17, 2019

Here’s an interview with ex Norwich player Leon Barnett in which he mentions Hughton’s negative style of football:

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter...autious-and-wanted-to-make-us-harder-to-beat/

peterward · Apr 17, 2019

El Turi said:
Here’s an interview with ex Norwich player Leon Barnett in which he mentions Hughton’s negative style of football:

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter...autious-and-wanted-to-make-us-harder-to-beat/

"Leon on… Chris Hughton

“It was a completely different structure under Chris. He was more cautious and wanted to make us harder to beat but we weren’t really focused on scoring goals. I think he thought that if we shut up shop and try to gamble on a chance and nick a goal then we could win 1-0.

“Once you’ve been built into having a mentality of rolling your sleeves up and having a go at opponents like Paul Lambert did to then turn into a team which was set up to get a draw or nick a 1-0 win was quite difficult. We had an attacking side which Lambert had built so it was a difficult adjustment period but as players you have to get on with it."

forumwayseagull · Apr 17, 2019

El Turi said:
Here’s an interview with ex Norwich player Leon Barnett in which he mentions Hughton’s negative style of football:

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter...autious-and-wanted-to-make-us-harder-to-beat/

a very interesting read about our CH...so very many parallells it amazing...we have turned into the canaries slowly but surely....The comment about setting up for a draw and hoping to nick a goal just about sums it all up.

Ernest · Apr 17, 2019

And buying over priced under scoring Dutch strikers too , history has repeated itself

Turkey · Apr 17, 2019

I think the loss of Gross recently and Izquierdo supposedly not being able to play more than 20 minutes has really hurt us. I think those two last season helped give us something going forward that we're lacking at the moment. Equally some of the signings haven't really stepped up and given us that something extra going forward.

8049 · Apr 17, 2019

peterward said:
"Leon on… Chris Hughton

“It was a completely different structure under Chris. He was more cautious and wanted to make us harder to beat but we weren’t really focused on scoring goals. I think he thought that if we shut up shop and try to gamble on a chance and nick a goal then we could win 1-0.

“Once you’ve been built into having a mentality of rolling your sleeves up and having a go at opponents like Paul Lambert did to then turn into a team which was set up to get a draw or nick a 1-0 win was quite difficult. We had an attacking side which Lambert had built so it was a difficult adjustment period but as players you have to get on with it."

This chimes with what I saw last night. It seemed like the first instinct of a lot of players was to go forward - either passing the ball or making a run - but then they checked themselves for a split second and the opportunity was gone. So passes went astray because they were made too late or the runners they were supposed to go to had not made the run. It seems like they've been drilled that the first thing to do when you get the ball is to make sure you don't take a risk.With the confidence gone, this has led to players becoming unable to make decisions quickly enough.

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[Albion] Comparisons to Hughton end at Norwich

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