[Travel] Electric cars

Half Time Pies · Aug 15, 2019

beorhthelm said:
yes, this is the problem. we use more energy in transport than we do electricity, so we have to generate an awful lot more electric (and to replace gas remember). fast charging makes adds complications as more current is needed, so you cant just plug into the normal mains.
Eons response is from the marketing department writen by BA graduates, engineers will know that we dont (cant) produce enough energy domestically. people will say you can do with solar and battery systems, but it doesnt scale out to the whole population. home generation could be a thing if we went down the hydrogen fuel cell route, but no interest seems to be shown in that.

I am no expert of the technical elements of this but as I understand it the battery technology is key to this, the latest rapid chargers that are being rolled out deliver the charge from huge battery packs and not directly from the grid.

The answer to mass adoption of EV's is also not necessarily about increasing overall capacity of the grid to produce more electricity but smoothing out fluctuations and peaks in demand. For example they are current trialling vehicle to grid technology where EV's communicate with the power grid and respond to fluctuations in demand by either returning electricity to the grid or by throttling their charging rate. In this way EVs could be used to solve some of the problems with renewables as they will be able to store the energy when renewables such as wind and solar are available and then discharge it back to the grid when it is most needed. In addition to this it seems likely that all houses and businesses in the future will have there own energy storage facilities/ batteries which will also improve the overall stability of the grid.

Bodian · Aug 15, 2019

What will really be needed is a battery pack that is easily removable and replaced - and standard throughout the world (like music cassettes). Then the recharging time/queues will disappear, as it will just be like going to the garage now. Pull in, swap battery, and away. The recharge time on a decent journey is what will put many people off.

My e-bike takes 3 hours to recharge, but I love it - and can carry a spare battery if needed.

Magicman · Aug 15, 2019

I have a Kia soul EV which i use as my cab in and around Brighton. I have owned the car for just over 2 years and its been faultless thus far.
The car charges overnight on the drive from a home charger installed courtesy of an OLEV grant which covered 75% of the installation costs. (£150 rather than £600).
The car only charges after 00.30 hrs which is when our cheap rate of electricity begins.Normally get home with 30 -40% of battery remaining after working 10 hours local. Average cost per night to charge is 90 pence (5p per kwh with Octopus)
Zero road fund licence and only £66.00 per service at the main dealer , who stamp the book thus keeping the warranty intact (7 years or 100,00 miles , 8 years on the battery)
Battery is made up of 200 individual cells which collectively weigh almost 300 kilo..Battery capacity needs to drop below 70% of original capacity before it becomes a warranty item. Should this occur it is possible to replace only the faulty cells rather than the whole pack , although i suspect a replacement battery with bigger capacity could be retrofitted in time.
It is by far the most responsive , comfortable , efficient car i have ever driven.
On a trip to Heathrow i will drop off the customer and then head to a Polar ultracharger and top up for 2 quid which takes around 30 minutes and enables me to use the loo and grab a coffee.
Under the bonnet is the electric motor , charger and inverter . The only "maintenance" for me to do is to top up the windscreen wash.
There is none of the following . Starter motor , alternator , water pump , cam belt , fan belt , turbo , DPF, EGR, oil, exhaust , all of which were items that were prone to failure or service items in my previous cabs at quite a cost.
After 46,000 miles all i have changed is the front tyres and they will need replacing again in another 4k or so. (instant torque is unbelievable)
During the winter months the car starts to pre heat to a nice 24 degrees and all the windows defrost 30 minutes before i depart .
Im convinced that i will never buy another ICE . The car suits my needs perfectly .
Should you have the slightest interest in electric cars then give Tates at Pyecombe a ring and they will set you up a test drive in the Niro , which incidentally has a battery pack of 64KwH , more than double the 30KwH in my Soul which was the biggest battery they manufactured 2 years ago. (battery technology is moving at an alarming rate)
My car will return over 160 miles of urban driving and the Niro 320 -350. I suspect in 3 years 500 miles will be normal in a new electric car.

beorhthelm · Aug 15, 2019

Half Time Pies said:
I am no expert of the technical elements of this but as I understand it the battery technology is key to this, the latest rapid chargers that are being rolled out deliver the charge from huge battery packs and not directly from the grid.

The answer to mass adoption of EV's is also not necessarily about increasing overall capacity of the grid to produce more electricity but smoothing out fluctuations and peaks in demand. For example they are current trialling vehicle to grid technology where EV's communicate with the power grid and respond to fluctuations in demand by either returning electricity to the grid or by throttling their charging rate. In this way EVs could be used to solve some of the problems with renewables as they will be able to store the energy when renewables such as wind and solar are available and then discharge it back to the grid when it is most needed. In addition to this it seems likely that all houses and businesses in the future will have there own energy storage facilities/ batteries which will also improve the overall stability of the grid.

this is the Elon Musk vision, and as nice as it is, its not practical. for a start it does require increasing generation capacity, because all the energy from petrol/diesel has to be sourced from somewhere. Musks idea is to lean on solar, great for Australia or California or even the Med, not so great for Northern Europe, other climates and higher latitudes. people havent gone for solar when there was massive subsidy and practially paying you to have it, why are we going to have widespread retrofit of solar and batteries when its a outright cost?

the idea of using batteries to hold power off the grid might work, if its generated elsewhere, and if you have the space. what about those without garages to house this? still needs uprating of electrics. its fine for trials just clear it doesnt scale. the conclusion is that the future of personal transportation becomes somewhat exclusive, only those with 10k spare for the fit out in a 3 bed semi will be able to have a car. maybe thats positive, certainly a more complex issue that isnt addressed.

jonnyrovers · Aug 15, 2019

I listened to a very interesting programme on the radio a few weeks ago where industry and academic contributors debated sustainable transport. There was almost unanimous agreement that the only practically possible and truly sustainable transport option in first world countries is mass investment in a first class public transport system.

The scientists on the panel laughed at the assumption we'd replace our fossil fuel burning cars with EVs. It is impossible to resource. It would require the mining of the earths FINITE offering of minerals/metals essential for battery manufacture too increase by 5000%!

We're kidding ourselves....

Stumpy Tim · Aug 16, 2019

Half Time Pies said:
It was a new type Nissan Leaf which has a real range of up to 150 miles, the top of the range current Nissan Leaf (e+) is 226 miles. Pretty much every service station in the UK has generic rapid chargers so if you don't mind stopping for a coffee on route then its fine. We also booked a hotel that had a charge point and charged over night before travelling home.

There are hotels with charging facilities in a lot of towns and most of them are free.

The only superchargers I can find mentioned online are proprietary to Tesla though. What are the generic ones called? I would love to know as I sometimes drive to the New Forest to see my Dad, and I have to take my petrol car

Stumpy Tim · Aug 16, 2019

jonnyrovers said:
I listened to a very interesting programme on the radio a few weeks ago where industry and academic contributors debated sustainable transport. There was almost unanimous agreement that the only practically possible and truly sustainable transport option in first world countries is mass investment in a first class public transport system.

The scientists on the panel laughed at the assumption we'd replace our fossil fuel burning cars with EVs. It is impossible to resource. It would require the mining of the earths FINITE offering of minerals/metals essential for battery manufacture too increase by 5000%!

We're kidding ourselves....

The reality is that Hydrogen is the way forward. Surprises me that car manufacturers haven't taken that route

GOM · Aug 16, 2019

Stumpy Tim said:
The reality is that Hydrogen is the way forward. Surprises me that car manufacturers haven't taken that route

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/

Half Time Pies · Aug 16, 2019

Stumpy Tim said:
The only superchargers I can find mentioned online are proprietary to Tesla though. What are the generic ones called? I would love to know as I sometimes drive to the New Forest to see my Dad, and I have to take my petrol car

There are a few like polar, charge master (now owned by BP) and charge my car but a lot of the motorway ones tend to be by Ecotricity. You can find where chargers are located on www.zap-map.com, in most cases you just need to download the relevant app to use them.

Half Time Pies · Aug 16, 2019

beorhthelm said:
this is the Elon Musk vision, and as nice as it is, its not practical. for a start it does require increasing generation capacity, because all the energy from petrol/diesel has to be sourced from somewhere. Musks idea is to lean on solar, great for Australia or California or even the Med, not so great for Northern Europe, other climates and higher latitudes. people havent gone for solar when there was massive subsidy and practially paying you to have it, why are we going to have widespread retrofit of solar and batteries when its a outright cost?

the idea of using batteries to hold power off the grid might work, if its generated elsewhere, and if you have the space. what about those without garages to house this? still needs uprating of electrics. its fine for trials just clear it doesnt scale. the conclusion is that the future of personal transportation becomes somewhat exclusive, only those with 10k spare for the fit out in a 3 bed semi will be able to have a car. maybe thats positive, certainly a more complex issue that isnt addressed.

This is incredibly short sighted, it is perfectly possible to generate all the power that we need in the UK from renewables, the biggest barrier to this is undoubtably storage. We already In the UK after all are generating over 25% of our energy from renewables using a combination of wind, solar, hydro and biomass.

You also won't also need loads of space to store batteries, the Telsa power wall 2 is slim enough to fit on a wall so if you have enough room for a radiator or a flat screen TV in your house then you will likely be able to have a battery. Don't forget also that this technology is moving forward all the time.

It is also may be perfectly possible to offset much of the increased electricity consumption from EV's with improved energy efficiency from things like lighting and motors. Norway for example has seen a 22% increase in its population since 1990 and a doubling of its economy yet over the same period energy usage increased by only 12%. They also are the fastest adopters of electric cars with 60% of all new vehicles now plug-in EV's and 99% of the energy they produce is renewable. Just shows that were there is a will there is a way!

beorhthelm · Aug 16, 2019

Half Time Pies said:
This is incredibly short sighted, it is perfectly possible to generate all the power that we need in the UK from renewables, the biggest barrier to this is undoubtably storage. We already In the UK after all are generating over 25% of our energy from renewables using a combination of wind, solar, hydro and biomass.

not really short sighted, a reflection of reality rather than hope. we could generate all the power needed in the UK if various conditions are met, large scale roll out of wind, solar, hydro, and huge energy storage to support it. the vision of all-renewable all-electric ignores that to replace energy required from transport and gas, we need to at least double electric power generation. good luck with the expected revolution in battery technology, they are limited by physics and chemistry. hydrogen offers more practical solutions, both in storage and generation, if there's more adoption of that all-electric might work. or more nuclear, but the green lobby kill that idea immediately.

Tesla reckon two power walls needed for house + car (and another for each additional car), so size of half a fridge-freezer, which might be trivial for you, but would be an issue in many homes. and at cost of £14k, compared to current home energy store cost of 0.

Stumpy Tim · Aug 16, 2019

Half Time Pies said:
There are a few like polar, charge master (now owned by BP) and charge my car but a lot of the motorway ones tend to be by Ecotricity. You can find where chargers are located on www.zap-map.com, in most cases you just need to download the relevant app to use them.

Thanks. I'm on Pod Point, but haven't seen rapid charging. I'll look into it, as I think I may be able to get rapid charging if I have the right connector

Stumpy Tim · Aug 16, 2019

GOM said:
https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/

I know they exist, but not as many as electric cars. Also, there are very few refilling stations.

Rowdey · Aug 16, 2019

beorhthelm said:
not really short sighted, a reflection of reality rather than hope. we could generate all the power needed in the UK if various conditions are met, large scale roll out of wind, solar, hydro, and huge energy storage to support it. the vision of all-renewable all-electric ignores that to replace energy required from transport and gas, we need to at least double electric power generation. good luck with the expected revolution in battery technology, they are limited by physics and chemistry. hydrogen offers more practical solutions, both in storage and generation, if there's more adoption of that all-electric might work. or more nuclear, but the green lobby kill that idea immediately.

Tesla reckon two power walls needed for house + car (and another for each additional car), so size of half a fridge-freezer, which might be trivial for you, but would be an issue in many homes. and at cost of £14k, compared to current home energy store cost of 0.

I cant find the quote, but a respected source within the the heating industry (when asked about making the UK carbon free by 2030/40) said we'd need a wind farm the size of Wales Offshore, and solar/wind farm half the size of Wales inshore.

N17 · Aug 16, 2019

Rowdey said:
I cant find the quote, but a respected source within the the heating industry (when asked about making the UK carbon free by 2030/40) said we'd need a wind farm the size of Wales Offshore, and solar/wind farm half the size of Wales inshore.

Build it in Wales!

Half Time Pies · Aug 16, 2019

beorhthelm said:
not really short sighted, a reflection of reality rather than hope. we could generate all the power needed in the UK if various conditions are met, large scale roll out of wind, solar, hydro, and huge energy storage to support it. the vision of all-renewable all-electric ignores that to replace energy required from transport and gas, we need to at least double electric power generation. good luck with the expected revolution in battery technology, they are limited by physics and chemistry. hydrogen offers more practical solutions, both in storage and generation, if there's more adoption of that all-electric might work. or more nuclear, but the green lobby kill that idea immediately.

Tesla reckon two power walls needed for house + car (and another for each additional car), so size of half a fridge-freezer, which might be trivial for you, but would be an issue in many homes. and at cost of £14k, compared to current home energy store cost of 0.

You are completely missing the point, nobody is suggesting that we install a Tesla power wall in to every home in the UK now! The point is that the technology is at a point where we are on the cusp of this being a possibility. Likewise we are not going to replace our petrol cars with electric ones overnight, its likely to be incremental and will require additional technological innovations, the crucial point is that there is now a lot of money and resources being ploughed in to overcoming some of these barriers and as a result thing are moving at such an incredible rate that there is nothing to suggest that we won't see some huge breakthroughs in battery technology and EV infrastructure over the next few years. There is also other technology being developed such as autonomous driving which is pointing to the fact that we are at the cusp point of a revolution in transportation.

After all 30 years ago who would have thought that it was possible to have hand hold devices with the computer processing power that we currently see, there were so many difficult things to overcome, battery size and capacity being one, but driven by the right levels of investment and competition things have developed beyond belief in a relatively short space of time.

GOM · Aug 16, 2019

beorhthelm said:
not really short sighted, a reflection of reality rather than hope. we could generate all the power needed in the UK if various conditions are met, large scale roll out of wind, solar, hydro, and huge energy storage to support it. the vision of all-renewable all-electric ignores that to replace energy required from transport and gas, we need to at least double electric power generation. good luck with the expected revolution in battery technology, they are limited by physics and chemistry. hydrogen offers more practical solutions, both in storage and generation, if there's more adoption of that all-electric might work. or more nuclear, but the green lobby kill that idea immediately.

Tesla reckon two power walls needed for house + car (and another for each additional car), so size of half a fridge-freezer, which might be trivial for you, but would be an issue in many homes. and at cost of £14k, compared to current home energy store cost of 0.

Well let's not bother then. We are all doomed. Doomed I say

I remember a time when there were only Ever Ready batteries. Now we have Duracell. Technology moves on apace.

Notters · Aug 16, 2019

Stumpy Tim said:
The reality is that Hydrogen is the way forward. Surprises me that car manufacturers haven't taken that route

Yep, this is very much the view of my colleagues in the air quality field.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but there are potentially some very significant environmental impacts with electric cars, not only from the electric generation and manufacture but also the batteries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49355817

beorhthelm · Aug 16, 2019

GOM said:
Well let's not bother then. We are all doomed. Doomed I say

I remember a time when there were only Ever Ready batteries. Now we have Duracell. Technology moves on apace.

its not a "lets not bother" view, its let not put all our hopes and dreams in one basket. there's a place for EV, just as theres a place for continuing use of ICE, and other solutions.

Greg Bobkin · Aug 16, 2019

Magicman said:
I have a Kia soul EV which i use as my cab in and around Brighton. I have owned the car for just over 2 years and its been faultless thus far.
The car charges overnight on the drive from a home charger installed courtesy of an OLEV grant which covered 75% of the installation costs. (£150 rather than £600).
The car only charges after 00.30 hrs which is when our cheap rate of electricity begins.Normally get home with 30 -40% of battery remaining after working 10 hours local. Average cost per night to charge is 90 pence (5p per kwh with Octopus)
Zero road fund licence and only £66.00 per service at the main dealer , who stamp the book thus keeping the warranty intact (7 years or 100,00 miles , 8 years on the battery)
Battery is made up of 200 individual cells which collectively weigh almost 300 kilo..Battery capacity needs to drop below 70% of original capacity before it becomes a warranty item. Should this occur it is possible to replace only the faulty cells rather than the whole pack , although i suspect a replacement battery with bigger capacity could be retrofitted in time.
It is by far the most responsive , comfortable , efficient car i have ever driven.
On a trip to Heathrow i will drop off the customer and then head to a Polar ultracharger and top up for 2 quid which takes around 30 minutes and enables me to use the loo and grab a coffee.
Under the bonnet is the electric motor , charger and inverter . The only "maintenance" for me to do is to top up the windscreen wash.
There is none of the following . Starter motor , alternator , water pump , cam belt , fan belt , turbo , DPF, EGR, oil, exhaust , all of which were items that were prone to failure or service items in my previous cabs at quite a cost.
After 46,000 miles all i have changed is the front tyres and they will need replacing again in another 4k or so. (instant torque is unbelievable)
During the winter months the car starts to pre heat to a nice 24 degrees and all the windows defrost 30 minutes before i depart .
Im convinced that i will never buy another ICE . The car suits my needs perfectly .
Should you have the slightest interest in electric cars then give Tates at Pyecombe a ring and they will set you up a test drive in the Niro , which incidentally has a battery pack of 64KwH , more than double the 30KwH in my Soul which was the biggest battery they manufactured 2 years ago. (battery technology is moving at an alarming rate)
My car will return over 160 miles of urban driving and the Niro 320 -350. I suspect in 3 years 500 miles will be normal in a new electric car.

I'm not convinced – as I've said previously – partly because of the advances in technology to get there won't be THAT quick and also because the growth of the network will mean range doesn't become so much of an issue. Like you say, you manage just fine and you do a lot of miles. Looking ahead to some of the productions cars being launched in Frankfurt next month, things like the Volkswagen ID is topping out at 300-ish (claimed) miles. Getting to 500 will take a bit longer than three years IMO.

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[Travel] Electric cars

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