[Politics] Brexit

golddene · Apr 11, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
Stephen Lloyd did say prior to the general election he would respect the referendum result and not oppose Brexit or vote for a further referendum if reelected in 2017 though.

I agree to a point but......
had he abstained rather than support I would have more respect for his position, I honestly believe the General election of 2017 and the outcome ( hung parliament) changed everything.
My opinion though simplistic is the referendum result was an abomination carried through by protest at the austerity measures heaped on the working classes to correct mistakes made by banking and higher classes etc. When offered a dream of more jam tomorrow who could blame the electorate for voting the way they did?

nicko31 · Apr 11, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
I will be interesting if Brexiteers get their wish and replace May sooner rather than later. I imagine it would lead to bigger problems in parliament and also with our dealings with the EU.

Should put a hardliner in, its the best way to get moderate Tories to back a People's Vote..

Ernest · Apr 11, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
You do get that they are a group of people with similar ideals and not a political party in the traditional sense right? That any notion of a party is simply there so they can take part in EU Elections? That they are trying a different way of politics rather than the tired old bi-partisan shit that has made such a mess of Brexit? And that any notion of power would be limited to a role as a partner or power broker? I would expect an INDEPENDANT GROUP to have a reasonably flexible approach to policy rather than to be bound to a set of ideological rules.

Nevertheless, there is a constant among them towards a People's Vote on Brexit which is why I quoted it. They also have some shared values, which you would expect, which a two minute Google would have shown you. I've done it for you

https://www.theindependent.group/statement

Of those it's clear that they believe in investment in public services, including schools and the NHS, freedom of the media, parliamentary democracyand reducing inequality. I agree with all of those principles wholeheartedly. As independants I'd be disappointed if they didn't pick and choose policies that they believed supported those ideals.

Why have they now set up as a Political Party then ? Change UK

Why did they vote against these policies in Parliament then ?

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 11, 2019

nicko31 said:
Should put a hardliner in, its the best way to get moderate Tories to back a People's Vote..

Putting a hardliner in may result in that outcome, however I think it is equally tenable that things could go the other way. Brexit has a habit of trashing the politics rulebook.

ManOfSussex · Apr 11, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
He's still a Lib Dem at heart though

At least he's not a Tory Brexiteer like Caroline Ansell though. Nailed on she'd have been in The ERG dribbling on about 'WTO terms' and 'managed no deal' etc without having a clue about it and voting against the withdrawal agreement like the rest of them had she held it in 2017 - at least the good people of Eastbourne were spared that.

ManOfSussex · Apr 11, 2019

Triggaaar said:
Dominic Cummings wasn't our Prime Minister, so him saying we'd negotiate a deal before leaving doesn't enshrine it in law does it.

I didn't say it did, I was quoting a line from The Vote Leave manifesto in 2016 which you quoted and which I'm sure you knew was completely wrong at the time etc. etc.

ManOfSussex · Apr 11, 2019

golddene said:
I agree to a point but......
had he abstained rather than support I would have more respect for his position, I honestly believe the General election of 2017 and the outcome ( hung parliament) changed everything.
My opinion though simplistic is the referendum result was an abomination carried through by protest at the austerity measures heaped on the working classes to correct mistakes made by banking and higher classes etc. When offered a dream of more jam tomorrow who could blame the electorate for voting the way they did?

Can't argue with any of that and it's always a straight choice between Tory and Lib Dems in Eastbourne at an election, so you take your pick. Him voting for The Withdrawal Agreement didn't make a jot of difference either way in the end though.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
I think we always see it differently so will use terms that are comfortable with our viewpoint. Not sure I understand your point about the Russians though?

The Soviets (Russia was part of the Soviet Union) ruled by police states. The EU is run by elections and votes, therefore is not an empire.

Baldseagull · Apr 11, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
Sorry but I see an openly pro Palestinian, pro Irish Republican as extremist on the left and you only have to look at what's happening to the local Labour party to see that Momentum are taking over in Brighton and Hove.

Pro Palestinians and Irish Republicans is not an extreme position, Pro Hammas and IRA is extreme, and Corbyn is not, though he is sympathetic to their cause, and he has been far more vocal in criticising the Governments of their respective targets for terror, than the terrorists. He is not my cup of tea either, but he is not quite an extremist, I don't think I would even go as far as radical.

WATFORD zero · Apr 11, 2019

Triggaaar said:
He's not factually wrong, he's right. He voted to leave, that's it. As has been covered many times in this thread, leave didn't mean 'whatever was said by the Leave campaign', because the leave campaign were not, and never would become, the government in charge. They were just politicians campaigning for the decision they wanted, but they weren't, and are not, the government.

So because they were not the government, and would never become the government, that was the reason why the Leave Campaign could say whatever they wanted. There was never any obligation to actually do what they said, for it to be implementable in any shape or form, or for it to be factually correct ?

That explains a lot

Blue3 · Apr 11, 2019

So it appears we are heading towards an election of MEPs I have read several comments where individuals have said they will not be voting I on the other hand think in light of the fact the Government can not get. Mrs Mays deal through Parliament and that they appear to be completely against returning the question to the people, then the European election by de facto will become the unofficial people's vote with Nigal Fararges flat earth society on one side of the argument and maybe the Indipendant Group on the other?

Mo Gosfield · Apr 11, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Where is the evidence for your fact? You can only say it is a fact rather than an opinion, with something to back it up.

I didn't say it was fact, just a ' general view ' which I based on most people I have met and spoken to and all media interviews I have seen or listened to, with the public. Not a wide cross-section but over recent weeks/months enough to gauge a feeling. You, however, stated that it was fact that the public wanted neither hard or soft Brexit and I wondered where this information came from.

Westdene Seagull · Apr 11, 2019

nicko31 said:
She said at the time her victory was the greatest of all, protecting us all from authoritarian leaders who thought they could do what they liked.

She also said that she wasn't taking the case to court for her own publicity and that if/once she won she would back out of the debate. She also said she wasn't trying to stop Brexit. Strangely, since winning her court case, she has appeared on numerous TV and radio shows supporting remaining. She's a it of a liar to say the least. Now, without using Google, name the person that also took the legal action with her, the person that truely did it to ensure the government stuck to the law, the person that really didn't then become a publicity hoare ?

Mo Gosfield · Apr 11, 2019

Blue3 said:
So it appears we are heading towards an election of MEPs I have read several comments where individuals have said they will not be voting I on the other hand think in light of the fact the Government can not get. Mrs Mays deal through Parliament and that they appear to be completely against returning the question to the people, then the European election by de facto will become the unofficial people's vote with Nigal Fararges flat earth society on one side of the argument and maybe the Indipendant Group on the other?

Stop Press.....Grammar and spelling check desperately required.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Interested by your comment that it is fact that the public no longer want a soft or hard Brexit. What information backs this up? I'll tell what is fact....no one has a scooby doo what the public feel ( they didn't in 2016 ) and whether views have changed. The general view is that a lot of people want this process concluded as soon as possible but what is not clear is whether they want to leave asap or return to the status quo asap.

Mo Gosfield said:
I didn't say it was fact, just a ' general view ' which I based on most people I have met and spoken to and all media interviews I have seen or listened to, with the public. Not a wide cross-section but over recent weeks/months enough to gauge a feeling. You, however, stated that it was fact that the public wanted neither hard or soft Brexit and I wondered where this information came from.

It was Lincoln Imp who quoted a fact not me. You did post 'It is a fact'. So I wanted to know where you got your fact from.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
She also said that she wasn't taking the case to court for her own publicity and that if/once she won she would back out of the debate. She also said she wasn't trying to stop Brexit. Strangely, since winning her court case, she has appeared on numerous TV and radio shows supporting remaining. She's a it of a liar to say the least. Now, without using Google, name the person that also took the legal action with her, the person that truely did it to ensure the government stuck to the law, the person that really didn't then become a publicity hoare ?

The word is whore, which is quite an unfortunate word really.
She has been asked to take part in debates rather than seeking publicity. Unsurprising really, when all she did was make sure Parliament acted legally.
It took an Act of Parliament to join the EU (Common Market) and it took an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50, rather than the government using Henry VIII measures.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 11, 2019

Blue3 said:
So it appears we are heading towards an election of MEPs I have read several comments where individuals have said they will not be voting I on the other hand think in light of the fact the Government can not get. Mrs Mays deal through Parliament and that they appear to be completely against returning the question to the people, then the European election by de facto will become the unofficial people's vote with Nigal Fararges flat earth society on one side of the argument and maybe the Indipendant Group on the other?

If you mean TIG, the Independent Group, I think we all better wait and see how many of them have future careers as MP's. Some may be de-selected, suffer votes of no confidence or get defeated in by-elections. At the moment, they are carrying on, regardless of the fact that they are now representing a party that none of their constituents voted for.

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 11, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
The Soviets (Russia was part of the Soviet Union) ruled by police states. The EU is run by elections and votes, therefore is not an empire.

Empires are not all the same, just like us they are good and bad, have a variety of expressions of government etc. The British empire can rightly be proud of some of its achievements but equally it was often cruel and self serving. I reiterate, I do not regard the EU as an evil empire, just a very unusual, fairly benign empire.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 11, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
It was Lincoln Imp who quoted a fact not me. You did post 'It is a fact'. So I wanted to know where you got your fact from.

From sheer bloody common sense. It is FACT that no one knows what the public at large really feel. Forget opinion polls, you only know after polling closes.

WilburySeagull · Apr 11, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
No, you haven't, but you are still calling it an empire. Yes, you're right, the Soviets did force them together whilst splitting Germany in half, and trying to starve Berliners.

Just to get facts right Checs and slovaks came together in 1918 after ww1 they were not for ed together by soviets after ww2. If you visit slovakia you will find many people who did not want the split at all

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