[Politics] Brexit

Guinness Boy · Apr 11, 2019

Ernest said:
What are the TINGERS policies on the NHS, schools, police, railways, public services or don't you care

You do get that they are a group of people with similar ideals and not a political party in the traditional sense right? That any notion of a party is simply there so they can take part in EU Elections? That they are trying a different way of politics rather than the tired old bi-partisan shit that has made such a mess of Brexit? And that any notion of power would be limited to a role as a partner or power broker? I would expect an INDEPENDANT GROUP to have a reasonably flexible approach to policy rather than to be bound to a set of ideological rules.

Nevertheless, there is a constant among them towards a People's Vote on Brexit which is why I quoted it. They also have some shared values, which you would expect, which a two minute Google would have shown you. I've done it for you

https://www.theindependent.group/statement

Of those it's clear that they believe in investment in public services, including schools and the NHS, freedom of the media, parliamentary democracyand reducing inequality. I agree with all of those principles wholeheartedly. As independants I'd be disappointed if they didn't pick and choose policies that they believed supported those ideals.

Westdene Seagull · Apr 11, 2019

golddene said:
Have respect for anyone who tries to vote tactically as it's the only way to oust MPs who otherwise would win by default as the opposition split will always favour them. I did this in 2017 to elect the Liberal Lloyd to oust the Tory, this worked well until he (Lloyd) decided to resign the Liberal whip so he could justify voting for May's WA, this after campaigning on the Lib remain ticket?? (T*at)

Never ever trust a Lib Dem ..... surely the Albion history has taught you this ?

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 11, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
Parliament has been inept but it faces an intractable problem. It has narrowly been given a remit to facilitate either a very soft Brexit or an extremely hard one. They're chalk and cheese and inevitably there are profound differences of opinion about what is in the national interest. This isn't helped by the fact that the public apparently now feels that neither is.

Neo dictatorships come to decisions more easily of course, and you can blame Gina Miller for us not having one of those.

Excellent summary of the point we are at. The Gina Miller point is a good one as well.

ManOfSussex · Apr 11, 2019

golddene said:
Have respect for anyone who tries to vote tactically as it's the only way to oust MPs who otherwise would win by default as the opposition split will always favour them. I did this in 2017 to elect the Liberal Lloyd to oust the Tory, this worked well until he (Lloyd) decided to resign the Liberal whip so he could justify voting for May's WA, this after campaigning on the Lib remain ticket?? (T*at)

Westdene Seagull said:
Never ever trust a Lib Dem ..... surely the Albion history has taught you this ?

Stephen Lloyd did say prior to the general election he would respect the referendum result and not oppose Brexit or vote for a further referendum if reelected in 2017 though.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 11, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
Parliament has been inept but it faces an intractable problem. It has narrowly been given a remit to facilitate either a very soft Brexit or an extremely hard one. They're chalk and cheese and inevitably there are profound differences of opinion about what is in the national interest. This isn't helped by the fact that the public apparently now feels that neither is.

Neo dictatorships come to decisions more easily of course, and you can blame Gina Miller for us not having one of those.

Interested by your comment that it is fact that the public no longer want a soft or hard Brexit. What information backs this up? I'll tell what is fact....no one has a scooby doo what the public feel ( they didn't in 2016 ) and whether views have changed. The general view is that a lot of people want this process concluded as soon as possible but what is not clear is whether they want to leave asap or return to the status quo asap.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
When history is written about this, if our species survive, a couple of hundred years from now, the EU will be regarded as an empire. Many people in the EU have advocated making Brexit difficult for Britain as a deterrent to other countries which may also be tempted to follow the same route. This makes sense in the short term as ostensibly it keeps things together, but long-term, it will result in a negative effect.

It really isn't an empire. Empires are held together by force not votes.
We've not adopted quite a few of the proposals, having opted out of them. We're not even using the same currency, and please don't tell me we are going to be forced to in the future.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Interested by your comment that it is fact that the public no longer want a soft or hard Brexit. What information backs this up? I'll tell what is fact....no one has a scooby doo what the public feel ( they didn't in 2016 ) and whether views have changed. The general view is that a lot of people want this process concluded as soon as possible but what is not clear is whether they want to leave asap or return to the status quo asap.

Where is the evidence for your fact? You can only say it is a fact rather than an opinion, with something to back it up.

Lincoln Imp · Apr 11, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
I think your post is correct but it brings another argument up that is one that has bothered me for years about the EU. I was never in favour of such a close relationship where our economies and institutions were so tightly bound. It is a major flaw that a country should find such difficulty in leaving the EU, it's design is at fault, we are largely to blame for not opposing greater integration more.

Leaving the EU can be very easy. All you have to do is give 24 months' notice and then bugger off. The problem arises if you try have your cake and eat it. Contrary to the claims of leading Brexiteers at the time of the referendum this is simply not possible. If you don't want to take the available option of walking away the only realistic alternative is something like the May deal, which Rees-Mogg, for example, sees as turning us into a slave state.

I have no idea which of these two, if either, the great British public might prefer.

Blue Valkyrie · Apr 11, 2019

I start to wonder just how many votes a 'Lets just go back to before Brexit even existed' Party would get now that a fair few seem totally sick of the whole saga.

mejonaNO12 aka riskit · Apr 11, 2019

What a cock up :lolol:

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
Stephen Lloyd did say prior to the general election he would respect the referendum result and not oppose Brexit or vote for a further referendum if reelected in 2017 though.

Yes, he was open and hones before the election, a rarity in politics.

Kinky Gerbil · Apr 11, 2019

The UK is a complete laughing stock.

rippleman · Apr 11, 2019

Six out of ten Labour MPs represent constituencies where the electorate voted to Leave.

Are those six out of ten Labour MPs representing their constituents by voting in favour of a deal to Leave? No. They are doing all they can to have a "Peoples" vote or revoke Art 50. They are putting their personal wishes and preferences above those of the constituents they represent. Those MPs deserve to be deselected.

And I'm now beginning to think that the Arch ReMAYner has been doing all she can from the outset to scupper Brexit.

Guinness Boy · Apr 11, 2019

rippleman said:
Six out of ten Labour MPs represent constituencies where the electorate voted to Leave.

Are those six out of ten Labour MPs representing their constituents by voting in favour of a deal to Leave? No. They are doing all they can to have a "Peoples" vote or revoke Art 50. They are putting their personal wishes and preferences above those of the constituents they represent. Those MPs deserve to be deselected.

And I'm now beginning to think that the Arch ReMAYner has been doing all she can from the outset to scupper Brexit.

Their duty to constituents is not to uphold a one off, singular referendum result, but to represent their best interests holistically. They stood on a manifesto that was, admittedly, a little confusing, but certainly did include a commitment towards a single market and customs union as part of soft Brexit, and certainly did not include a hard border or backstop with regards to Northern Ireland. The voters in those six out of ten constituencies had the opportunity to reject that manifesto and kick them out, and they did not take that opportunity.

Blaming Labour for this mess is like blaming Sri Lanka for Scotland being rubbish at cricket.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 11, 2019

rippleman said:
Six out of ten Labour MPs represent constituencies where the electorate voted to Leave.

Are those six out of ten Labour MPs representing their constituents by voting in favour of a deal to Leave? No. They are doing all they can to have a "Peoples" vote or revoke Art 50. They are putting their personal wishes and preferences above those of the constituents they represent. Those MPs deserve to be deselected.

And I'm now beginning to think that the Arch ReMAYner has been doing all she can from the outset to scupper Brexit.

MPs are not delegates. I have posted this before, as my MP is supposed to be from a Remain area but is part of the ERG, therefore hard Brexit.
Another example is Hoey who represents a Remain constituency.

Blue Valkyrie · Apr 11, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
Their duty to constituents is not to uphold a one off, singular referendum result, but to represent their best interests holistically. They stood on a manifesto that was, admittedly, a little confusing, but certainly did include a commitment towards a single market and customs union as part of soft Brexit, and certainly did not include a hard border or backstop with regards to Northern Ireland. The voters in those six out of ten constituencies had the opportunity to reject that manifesto and kick them out, and they did not take that opportunity.

Blaming Labour for this mess is like blaming Sri Lanka for Scotland being rubbish at cricket.

Worth noting their duty is also to act in the best interests of the ~30% who didn't vote + all those not qualifying to vote.

mejonaNO12 aka riskit · Apr 11, 2019

rippleman said:
Are those six out of ten Labour MPs representing their constituents by voting in favour of a deal to Leave? .

Yes. Their constituents live in this country. The MP is making decisions in the best interest of the country.

If the deal put before the MP is CRAP and they know it is wrong for this country, I would desperately hope they wouldn't feel forced to go along with it because Dave and Susan wanted to leave.

Triggaaar · Apr 11, 2019

The Clamp said:
I didn’t think anyone but the most ardent of Brexiteers was hoping for a No Deal?

WATFORD zero said:
You've got me interested now Trig. Who thought the EU wanted a 'no deal' ? (facepalm emoji removed in case someone thought it insulting)

I doubt remainers thought the EU wanted a No Deal, it's more that they said it didn't matter to the EU if there was No Deal. Before the end of March there was talk that the EU wouldn't grant an extension, and I said if the alternative was a No Deal they'd be daft not to grant an extension. I was then criticised on here for thinking a No Deal would be a problem for the EU.

pb21 · Apr 11, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
Their duty to constituents is not to uphold a one off, singular referendum result, but to represent their best interests holistically. They stood on a manifesto that was, admittedly, a little confusing, but certainly did include a commitment towards a single market and customs union as part of soft Brexit, and certainly did not include a hard border or backstop with regards to Northern Ireland. The voters in those six out of ten constituencies had the opportunity to reject that manifesto and kick them out, and they did not take that opportunity.

Blaming Labour for this mess is like blaming Sri Lanka for Scotland being rubbish at cricket.

Agree. In addition the 2017 Labour manifesto states:

We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain.

What Labour have been trying to do for the past two years, and are doing at the moment, is precisely what they said they would do, and presumably why their constituents voted for them in the first place.

nicko31 · Apr 11, 2019

rippleman said:
Six out of ten Labour MPs represent constituencies where the electorate voted to Leave.

Are those six out of ten Labour MPs representing their constituents by voting in favour of a deal to Leave? No. They are doing all they can to have a "Peoples" vote or revoke Art 50. They are putting their personal wishes and preferences above those of the constituents they represent. Those MPs deserve to be deselected.

And I'm now beginning to think that the Arch ReMAYner has been doing all she can from the outset to scupper Brexit.

Are they enemies of the people as they don't take the same view as the humble folk who own the Ritz?

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[Politics] Brexit

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