Wellesley
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- Jul 24, 2013
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[Technology] Are some leftwingers unthinking automatons?
- Thread starter looney
- Start date
dingodan
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- Feb 16, 2011
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It sounds like you are associating these things with the left? I'm on the right rather than the left and those things are all true of me too. I've never met anyone on the right who opposes equality for homosexuals, equality for women, or is opposed to other cultures.
I have. But no, I was in fact pointing out, using myself as an example that those who lean to the right also hold normal, liberal views.
dingodan
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- Feb 16, 2011
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Well you may have met some on the right who opposed gay marriage for example, but likely in defence of the Church and it's right to define it's own sacrament. Would that person have opposed another kind of civil union, which anyone of any sexuality could enter into, with all the same rights and legal standing as marriage? It tended to be forcing it on the church which was at issue, rather than an opposition to equality for homosexuals.
You may have met some on the right who challenge the idea of a wage gap, but the wage gap (being based on gender) doesn't stand up to scrutiny. That isn't a belief that women and men shouldn't be treated equally. They are treated equally as far as I can tell. The Conservative party have a female leader and Prime Minister, and did throughout the 80's too, never heard anyone on the right take issue with that in the least.
You may have met some on the right who are opposed to open door mass immigration, but when I was growing up we had a lot of immigration in this country, we have had for a considerably long time, and it was never a political issue, it only became one when the numbers increased massively. So it's not been an opposition to other cultures, it's been an opposition to the numbers primarily.
Of course there are small minded prejudiced people in this country as there are everywhere, but as far as the mainstream political right goes, don't take the above things to be the same as being against equality for homosexuals & women or a dislike of other cultures, because they aren't those things at all.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
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& in response to your edit, yes, classical liberalism and conservatism are very much aligned. That's why I think it's better to refer to the "left" rather than "liberals" because in many ways liberal ideals are the ideals of personal liberty, which are also conservative ideals, and the ideals which are frequently challenged by the left.
Freedom of speech being a classic example.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,582
Just be glad you can think. I think I'm a left-wing automaton so I can't think.
(There is meant to be a degree of irony here.....)
McTavish
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- Nov 5, 2014
- 1,562
Really? I had lunch at the Carlton Club yesterday, a club which describes itself as "the oldest, most elite and most important of all Conservative clubs" and is only open to "persons of full age who support the Conservative Party". It was only ten years ago that women were not allowed to be full members and whilst there are now some female members, yesterday the only women in the dining room were the waiting staff. If you have never met anyone on the right who opposes equality for women, I don't think you have been paying attention...
looney
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- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
- Thread starter
- #48
And the NPC is of ranting from his safe space again.
All I asked was for opinions on the memes, a couple managed it, the others seemed more intrested in OP while pretending they were not and shining up their egos and quirks.
I take it NSC has no fixed opinion.
Yes...you're right.
But all this reminds me of the story of the master of sarcasm and wit, which I may relate on day. The punchline is '**** off, you red-nosed ****'.
I somtimes wonder if intellectual Germans in the late 20s and early 30s wrote clever rebuttals to the notions of Mr Hitler. Yes I know all about 'all failed discussions reducing to quoting the Nazis'. Anyway....I suspect it would have been better if a few chaps had jumped the ****, done him, and disposed of the body in the grinder in a pet food factory. Man played, game over.
In the meantime I salute your rigour.
ps [MENTION=277]looney[/MENTION], I can't, don't and won't read your posts so don't bother replying to mind. You 'tawt'.
There are people that oppose women's rights, are prejudiced against gays (for non religious reasons), do not like foreigners and proudly package this all as their right wing political beliefs. And you really don't have to gao far to find them. Bolton Conservative Men's Club is a good place to start. They have a gild framed picture of Enoch Powell in the lobby.
dingodan
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- Feb 16, 2011
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I don't consider that "old boys club" to be an example of the mainstream right, by it's own haughty definition, it isn't.
Can you give of an example of anything anyone on the right has said which expresses an opposition to equality for women? Some kind of "women shouldn't have the same rights as men" statement?
You'll find that attitude is not spoken out loud much in public forums these days but go behind the closed doors of many institutions and you'll experience it aplenty. Head to the VIth form Common Room in any British boarding school if you are tempted to think these attitudes are dying out too. Or any pub on a Friday night up North or on a London council estate community pub.
- Aug 7, 2003
- 7,795
Maybe a stupid question, but why don’t the memes have ears?
dingodan
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- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
My reply to [MENTION=30352]McTavish[/MENTION] applies to this post too, same question. I don't think these are examples of the mainstream right. What I've been talking about on both the left and the right is the mainstream, someone/something you might hear said on the daily politics or elsewhere in the context of the public political discourse.
So you mean you will only accept a political view from a politician? I'm talking about the outdated right wing views present in the everyday fabric of our society. You don't have to go far. But if you are not willing to accept that as an example we shall have to agree to disagree I think.
No politician or public speaker , not even Robinson, is daft enough to get on a public platform these days and come out with sexist, racist or homophobic views. At best it'd ruin their career, at worst get them charged with hate speech. But you will not convince me people don't still hold these views and regard them as integral to their right wing politic because I know that is simply not true.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
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That's a no then.
You must be extremely naive to think that politicians' views expressed in public always echo their private views.
To repeat...
So you mean you will only accept a political view from a politician? I'm talking about the outdated right wing views present in the everyday fabric of our society. You don't have to go far. But if you are not willing to accept that as an example we shall have to agree to disagree I think.
No politician or public speaker , not even Robinson, is daft enough to get on a public platform these days and come out with sexist, racist or homophobic views. At best it'd ruin their career, at worst get them charged with hate speech. But you will not convince me people don't still hold these views and regard them as integral to their right wing politic because I know that is simply not true.
McTavish
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- Nov 5, 2014
- 1,562
It is the very epitome of the mainstream right. There were several Conservative MPs eating there yesterday and it is still a centre for Conservative intrigue. Cabinet Ministers regularly turn up to be questioned by the members in private meetings. How is that not "mainstream right"?
dingodan
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- Feb 16, 2011
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"They aren't saying it, but I know it's what they are thinking".
I can't take that view seriously, and actually that's what I was talking about in my original post. If you can find an example, I will fight it with you, as will most on the right. But if you can't find an example, maybe that should tell you something. If you still want to assume, despite no examples of it, that it's somehow not only there, but also all pervasive, then you are just ghost hunting, and the big problem I have with it is that this kind of mentality gets used to justify demonizing anyone on the right.
Person on the right: "Immigration numbers are too high, this is unsustainable".
Person on the left: "You won't say it but I know you are just a closet racist".
Person on the right: "Public spending and public debt are out of control and unsustainable".
Person on the left: "You won't say it but I know you just really hate poor people".
It was my original point in this thread.
This all looks to me like political prejudice, which means that ironically the only demonstrable prejudice I can find is yours.
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