[Politics] Schools 4 Climate Action - great turn out in Brighton

Plooks said:

All the evidence we have shows that humans are changing the climate. You really do appear to have your head in the sand regarding the data.

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Regarding international conduct, the first endorsement of the principle was in 1982 when the World Charter for Nature was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, while its first international implementation was in 1987 through the Montreal Protocol. Soon after, the principle integrated with many other legally binding international treaties such as the Rio Declaration and Kyoto Protocol.

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Wrong-Direction said:

It's MUGS like you that sit back your whole life and do sweet F A! Then complain when it's too late

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

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A1X said:

[TWEET]1118798080458076161[/TWEET]

This highlights for me the big issue I have with Climate Change deniers. Sure, if you want to not believe it, knock yourself out. But surely even if you don't believe it it's still better to be safe than sorry and act to reduce pollution and emissions anyway? A bit like how I don't believe in God but I still realise that being nice to people and not killing them is a better thing to be doing than not.

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FIVESTEPS said:

My point was that most are aware of the danger of climate change.As to what I do,I have done all I can to the house,I walk to work am an infrequent flier I donate to environmental charities and when I go for a walk I often take a bag to pick up litter.If having sympathy for people trying to get to work such as nurses as was reported makes me a mug then guilty as charged.

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dingodan said:

That is such an empty statement. There is no evidence which demonstrates scientifically that humans are changing the climate. It isn't actually possible to prove it. There isn't enough data because in relative terms humans haven't been around long enough. Climate trends span thousands of years. Our impact can only be presumed to start after the industrial revolution. So we don't know, and we can't know, whether changing trends in the climate have something to do with us, are a result of something else, or are part of a natural cycle.

There is no evidence. There is consensus, but it's not based on evidence. It's based on politics and ideology and on emotion. I don't oppose environmentalism, I think people concerned about the evironment are right to be, and anyone who wants to make positive change for the better is a good person, no question.

Just don't manipulate and lie to do it. If you want to argue that we may be impacting the climate, and we should act as if we are, because perhaps we won't be able to prove it until it's too late - That would be an honest argument, in fact it used to be the argument that was made. It's called the precautionary principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle



Now environmentalists just lie, they say "we know" AND they call people who question them "deniers". They scare children into thinking the world will end and that human beings are "killing" the planet and they should be terrified and nothing is getting better.

I'm sorry but the ends do not justify the means. Environmentalism would have so much more support if it was honest and careful about educating people and telling the truth. Instead it is using spin and politics (and the demonization of anyone who cares about the truth) and it's scaring, misinforming and manipulating children.

Those things are hurting the cause of environmentalism. People who oppose modern day environmentalism do so for these reasons, not because they don't care about the environment. You would be better of telling the truth, people don't respond well to attempts to manipulate them and lie to them.

(EDIT: To be fair most people aren't deliberately lying, they are all just believing each others misinformed opinions. Everyone just repeats "all the evidence shows" without knowing what that means. Safe in the knowledge that everyone else seems to agree. I just care about the truth and people being properly educated and thinking things through thoroughly for themselves. That's what you need to be able to do to have any chance of solving problems.)

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dingodan said:

They don't share my opinion. I believe that the facts and the truth of things actually matters if you want to address problems.

They, and you, apparently don't.

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portlock seagull said:

I’m definitely doing my bit and looking for ways to do more but it’s really frustrating having to deal with cynics and deniers. This is why only regulation and tax (from people’s pay packets) will work. Millions would be denying as the tsunami towers over then, the flames lick their roofs etc. Said this for a long time. And also the only way to do this quickly and efficiently now is to declare martial law and putting us on a war footing with rationing and so forth until a new rebalanced equilibrium in favour of the planet is set. We waste so much. We consume too much. We’re selfish. Narcissistic. In denial. We need not worry about going to hell. Because Hell is coming to us, quite literally.

Stop having children
Stop long haul flights
Eat less meat or even stop altogether
Lobby your politicians

And DON’T just sit their snipping and sneering about how it’s unrealistic, other countries are worse blah blah blah. Take some bloody responsibility yourself. Walk to the shop for that pint of milk or plan your life better so that you pick it up in route instead of jumping in the car because you forgot. Reuse those Amazon outers for sending your own parcels. Take containers to the shops to put loose foods in, instead of buying everything in shrink wrap. Get a soda stream and stop buying carbonated water or soft drinks in plastic bottles. Stop walking round your house in a t shirt complaining it’s cold and turning up the heating, stick a jumper on instead!! There are so many little things we can all do to cut the ridiculous levels of waste and consumption we have. Car share. Get up 10mins earlier and get a bus. Re evaluate where you work and see if you can’t find somewhere that doesn’t involve 60mins in the car. Or once a week trips the length of the country. Literally loads of things we can all do to reduce our carbon footprint.

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nicko31 said:

Would you agree its best now to take action, ie better safe than sorry?

If the "no called" experts are all wrong on man made climate change, will it be a disaster? Or just a temporary hit to corporations with vested interests...

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nicko31 said:

Would you agree its best now to take action, ie better safe than sorry?

If the "no called" experts are all wrong on man made climate change, will it be a disaster? Or just a temporary hit to corporations with vested interests...

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Groupthink occurs when a group of well-intentioned people make irrational or non-optimal decisions that are spurred by the urge to conform or the discouragement of dissent. This problematic or premature consensus may be fueled by a particular agenda or simply because group members value harmony and coherence above rational thinking. In a groupthink situation, group members refrain from expressing doubts and judgments or disagreeing with the consensus. In the interest of making a decision that furthers their group cause, members may ignore any ethical or moral consequences.

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portlock seagull said:

Fortunately you’re in a minority and exactly the sort of mindset that serves as a barrier. We haven’t got time to argue about opinions anymore, do your oh so prescious data collection exercise because as I’ve previously said, millions like you will still be arguing the toss as your roof burns or a starving polar bear enters your garden in BN1 looking for food. We just need to get on with, those who resist or don’t cooperate simply need to be forced. Bit like conscription during war. Like it or not, it’s a national emergency and you don’t get to choose in or out. You’re in. Because you’re alive and sharing the same toxic air as me and all those who want to clean our collective act up for the sake of future generations

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Voroshilov said:

Really, really? You complain about people calling the likes of you thick and then you come out with this absolute belter. Have you been living in a hole in the ground or do you just switch off when climate change is mentioned?

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dingodan said:

You believe that human beings are causing the planet's climate to change. Just say that, and don't say that you know it, because you don't. That's all I am asking.

I want a clean environment, I want ecosystems and species saved from the harmful effects of human activity. I just don't want manipulation and a society of people who are unwilling to test what they believe and unwilling to be careful about what they say. We can solve problems if we face them honestly and truthfully, but we will have significant other problems if we find ourselves unable or unwilling to do that.

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portlock seagull said:

Fortunately you’re in a minority and exactly the sort of mindset that serves as a barrier. We haven’t got time to argue about opinions anymore, do your oh so prescious data collection exercise because as I’ve previously said, millions like you will still be arguing the toss as your roof burns or a starving polar bear enters your garden in BN1 looking for food. We just need to get on with, those who resist or don’t cooperate simply need to be forced. Bit like conscription during war. Like it or not, it’s a national emergency and you don’t get to choose in or out. You’re in. Because you’re alive and sharing the same toxic air as me and all those who want to clean our collective act up for the sake of future generations

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portlock seagull said:

I’m definitely doing my bit and looking for ways to do more but it’s really frustrating having to deal with cynics and deniers. This is why only regulation and tax (from people’s pay packets) will work. Millions would be denying as the tsunami towers over then, the flames lick their roofs etc. Said this for a long time. And also the only way to do this quickly and efficiently now is to declare martial law and putting us on a war footing with rationing and so forth until a new rebalanced equilibrium in favour of the planet is set. We waste so much. We consume too much. We’re selfish. Narcissistic. In denial. We need not worry about going to hell. Because Hell is coming to us, quite literally.

Stop having children
Stop long haul flights
Eat less meat or even stop altogether
Lobby your politicians

And DON’T just sit their snipping and sneering about how it’s unrealistic, other countries are worse blah blah blah. Take some bloody responsibility yourself. Walk to the shop for that pint of milk or plan your life better so that you pick it up in route instead of jumping in the car because you forgot. Reuse those Amazon outers for sending your own parcels. Take containers to the shops to put loose foods in, instead of buying everything in shrink wrap. Get a soda stream and stop buying carbonated water or soft drinks in plastic bottles. Stop walking round your house in a t shirt complaining it’s cold and turning up the heating, stick a jumper on instead!! There are so many little things we can all do to cut the ridiculous levels of waste and consumption we have. Car share. Get up 10mins earlier and get a bus. Re evaluate where you work and see if you can’t find somewhere that doesn’t involve 60mins in the car. Or once a week trips the length of the country. Literally loads of things we can all do to reduce our carbon footprint.

Click to expand...

dingodan said:

You believe that human beings are causing the planet's climate to change. Just say that, and don't say that you know it, because you don't. That's all I am asking.

I want a clean environment, I want ecosystems and species saved from the harmful effects of human activity. I just don't want manipulation and a society of people who are unwilling to test what they believe and unwilling to be careful about what they say. We can solve problems if we face them honestly and truthfully, but we will have significant other problems if we find ourselves unable or unwilling to do that.

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bashlsdir said:

Apart from putting out the recycling every fortnight, I really don't know what else people can and are expected to do.

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dingodan said:

That is such an empty statement. There is no evidence which demonstrates scientifically that humans are changing the climate. It isn't actually possible to prove it. There isn't enough data because in relative terms humans haven't been around long enough. Climate trends span thousands of years. Our impact can only be presumed to start after the industrial revolution. So we don't know, and we can't know, whether changing trends in the climate have something to do with us, are a result of something else, or are part of a natural cycle.

There is no evidence. There is consensus, but it's not based on evidence. It's based on politics and ideology and on emotion. I don't oppose environmentalism, I think people concerned about the evironment are right to be, and anyone who wants to make positive change for the better is a good person, no question.

Just don't manipulate and lie to do it. If you want to argue that we may be impacting the climate, and we should act as if we are, because perhaps we won't be able to prove it until it's too late - That would be an honest argument, in fact it used to be the argument that was made. It's called the precautionary principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle



Now environmentalists just lie, they say "we know" AND they call people who question them "deniers". They scare children into thinking the world will end and that human beings are "killing" the planet and they should be terrified and nothing is getting better.

I'm sorry but the ends do not justify the means. Environmentalism would have so much more support if it was honest and careful about educating people and telling the truth. Instead it is using spin and politics (and the demonization of anyone who cares about the truth) and it's scaring, misinforming and manipulating children.

Those things are hurting the cause of environmentalism. People who oppose modern day environmentalism do so for these reasons, not because they don't care about the environment. You would be better of telling the truth, people don't respond well to attempts to manipulate them and lie to them.

(EDIT: To be fair most people aren't deliberately lying, they are all just believing each others misinformed opinions. Everyone just repeats "all the evidence shows" without knowing what that means. Safe in the knowledge that everyone else seems to agree. I just care about the truth and people being properly educated and thinking things through thoroughly for themselves. That's what you need to be able to do to have any chance of solving problems.)

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dingodan said:

It depends what your solutions are, but you will likely come up with poor solutions or not think them through carefully if you have the diagnosis wrong.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/basics/groupthink

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Seagull27 said:

What evidence would you need to convince you to change 'believe' into 'know'? Because the evidence is there, as far as any scientific theory:

- we can prove that there is a sharp increase in atmospheric CO2 since the industrial revolution

- we can prove that the extra CO2 comes from fossil fuel sources

- we can see an unmistakeable correlation between that extra CO2 and a rise in global temperatures

- yes the climate changes naturally, and yes CO2 levels and temperatures have been much higher and lower than they are currently - that's not the problem. It's the RATE of change of both of these that is worrying, we've never seem anything near the rate of change of CO2 or temperature in thousands of years (which, again, we can prove).

I commend you for your open-mindedness on this as people should always question. But what other conclusion can you seriously draw from all of the evidence we have?

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